Friends & Fiction
Friends & Fiction

Episode · 1 month ago

Friends & Fiction with Paula Faris & Daryn Kagan

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

On this episode, we welcome TWO journalist-turned-author guests as we commemorate the 20th anniversary of 9/11. Meet Daryn Kagan who spent more than 12 years as an anchor on CNN, reporting live from several major events around the world, including the war in Iraq, the September 11th terrorist attacks, and numerous presidential elections. Today, Daryn is a syndicated newspaper columnist, and the author of HOPE POSSIBLE. We will also welcome Paula Faris who is a journalist (formerly co-anchor of Good Morning America Weekend and co-host on The View), podcaster, and author of the book CALLED OUT. Hear about their journeys from high pressure jobs in national television, to carving out more time for family and for themselves, and to becoming published authors.

Welcome to Friends and Fiction. Fivebest selling authors and the stories. Novelists, mary Kay andrews, ChristineHarmel, Christie Woodson, Harvey Patty Callahan, Henry and mary Alice Munroare five longtime friends with more than 80 published books to their creditIn 2020 they created friends and fiction to provide author interviewsand fascinating insider talk about publishing and writing and to highlightindependent bookstores. These friends discuss the books, they have writtenthe books they're reading now and the art of storytelling. If you love booksand you're curious about the writing world, you're in the right place. Hi everyone welcome to our weeklyWednesday evening show where we explore the world behind your favorite books.We are so glad you're here. I'm Christine Harmel, I'm Christie What'son Harvey, I'm patty Callahan Henry and I'm Mario's oh that's for the bloopertape, I'm mary Kay Andrews Oh and this is friends and fiction and the new yorktimes. Bestselling others with identity crises process endless stories all tosupport independent booksellers tonight you'll meet Daryn Kagan and Paula Farisand possibly mary Alice Munro Andrews, I don't know but Darren and Paula towomen you may feel like you already know because chances are they've beenon your television more times than you can count, Darren used to be the mainanchor on CNN where she worked for 12 years and Paula was on the View andGood Morning America Weekend and continues to be a correspondent for abcNews. Both have books out now and both have found new and perhaps surprisingroads to joy where they least expected to. We'll talk to both women abouttheir careers and about their books, Darren's hope possible. And paul iscalled out and we'll also speak to them about finding joy in the journey. But first we want to share somethingwith you that we are starting to do a bit differently. If you've tuned inbefore, you might know that we have a featured book store of the week everyweek since our very first episode in April of 2020. Well from now on, we'llbe asking our guests to tell you about their favorite stores. And from time totime we'll highlight our own favorite Indies. But each week, instead ofoffering you 10% off at the store of the week, we will be updating our ownbookshop dot org. Shop Well, you'll get a built in discount on most books andwhere a portion of your purchase will go to help independent bookstoresnationwide. And of course we encourage you to support your own local stores to.It is so important to shop local wherever you are because bookstores aresuch a vital part of our communities across the nation and across the world.So if you have a bookstore in your area, make sure to support them so that theirdoors can stay open. Absolutely. And you know, let's be honest, all of usshop at big stores to we love it when Target and walmart and Costco stock ourbooks and we're thrilled that you can grab a novel at the same time you'repicking up your milk and eggs at ordering online is easy. We do it. Wejust ask that when you're thinking about how to spend your money in a waythat does some good. You keep your local bookstores in mind too, becausewhen you shop there, when you shop local, even if it costs a few dollarsmore, your money is going straight back into your community. Well speaking ofbuying books at all these fabulous bookstores, we have a special treat foryou this evening. It is time to tell you about our guests, Daryn Kagan andPaula Faris. Uh huh. I'm still spaced out. Okay,well Darrin was an anchor on CNN for 12 years during her time at CNN shereported on presidential elections, traveled to Africa with musician bonois the bono or bono, I never know bono bono. This is how you know, I'm old toreport on AIDS and famine. And she reported live from the red carpet ofseveral academy awards ceremonies. She is one of only a few national newsanchors who were live on the air during the morning of September 11, 2001.That's incredible. After leaving the network in 2006, she launched DarynKagan.com, which we haven't been to, you must which focuses on uplifting andpositive news and extended her content to documentaries, radio and books. Shehas given a ted talk about how to watch...

...the news and get inspired and she hasalso contributed to cbs sunday morning Darren's PBS film Breaking the Cursewhen the 2000 and eight Gracie Award for Outstanding Documentary. She alsorecently released a book Hope possible and network news anchors, thoughts andlosing her job, finding love a new career and my dog, always my dog, whichwe'll be talking to her about tonight. Karen lives in Georgia with her husbandand she has two young adult daughters. Now, Paula Faris spent over two decadesin broadcast journalism, including nine years at abc news where she co anchoredGood Morning America Weekend co hosted the View and launched journeys of faithwith Paula Faris. The Emmy Award winning journalist has reported oneverything from politics to entertainment to sports and she'sinterviewed high profile people such as joe biden, I eat the president, you'reon it tonight girl on it Tom Hanks, I eat Forrest gump and Hillary ClintonPaula recently released her first book called out Why I traded to dream jobsfor a life of True Calling, which explores the events that led her tomake a change in her career and allowed her to discover who she was outside ofher work. She also hosts the Paula Faris Faith and calling podcast. Paulais a graduate of Cedarville University in Cedarville Ohio and currently livesin south Carolina with her husband john and their three kids. Both womenreached the height of their careers and then took a left turn into what I liketo think of as the beginning of happily ever after. In other words, you know, Ithink the lesson we're so often taught is that we have to work work, work foryears and years and years always striving for the next big thing. Butboth Darren and Paula said enough, they stepped off the merry go round, theytook control of their destinies and they found incredible ways to bringgood into both their own lives and into the world at large. So Sean, can youbring Darren and Paula on please. Hi. Hi. Hey lady, welcome. It's sowonderful to help the two of you here. Good to be with you. It's great to bewith you and Darrin. Apparently we're not that far apart from one another.You're in the, in Georgia and I'm in south Carolina. So we probably shouldhave done this together tonight, but we're just not realizing that it's justthat's asking for a future girl date. I think. I love that. Yes. Ray check.Wait. Hello, Are they having a party without us? Uh north Carolina. Yeah. One bigsouthern party. I think when you got that was a given ladies, that was again,you're really thank you. Yeah. You know how they were running off to get a gooduh, So ladies, we're going to talk about your amazing books in just amoment. But first we want to start off and start talking about the 20thanniversary of September 11 which is only three days from now. I just 20years wow because the two of you were both working as journalists on thatfateful day in 2000 and one Darren Kristen's essay this week for Parademagazine was actually about your journey. Did you read it? I did. Somoving. It's a beautiful piece. I read things like that. I go, oh I want to beher, I want to feel like what it would feel like to get that grand experience.So thank you. It was so moving. I've read it a couple of times so for methat day I remember everybody has that memory right I would just dropped offmy two oldest at elementary school and I was at the gym and most peoplelistening to this, I don't believe that but I was at the gym. I know this isshocking news but it was 20 years ago and I was with my three year old who isnow 23 I saw the second plane hit live on the gyms tv over over the screen andeverything in that room stopped, everyone stood stock still, nobody knewwhat to say. It was this really eerie silence and I ran total mother'sinstinct and I grabbed my three year old from the little nursery and went tomy friend Susan's house, I was in Atlanta at the time to watch the newsand we stayed there all day Horrified and knowing I kept saying this is abefore and after in our lives this is a...

...before and after and it ended up beingvery true. It was a before and after. So Darren, can you tell us a bit aboutwhat you remember from that morning, 20 years ago? So when the first plane hitum this little Paula knows how this works broke. This was like 15 minutesbefore my co anchor leon Harris, we're about to go on the air. So we were inthe makeup room which is where nice little news anchors go right beforethey go on the air and one of the producers popped in and said hey thisthing is happening in new york turn up the volume on the monitors in here Ithink you need to watch. And at that point if we can dial back our memorieswhen that first plane hit. I don't think it was within the thought of anyof us that that was anything possibly more than like a private plane, a smallprivate plane that went a long way. Yes it's really an accident. Um and onlyand I am sat down the first anchors moved out and we were interviewingaviation experts. I mean you just kind of go CNN is made for this kind ofbreaking news and so there's just kind of a thing that you do and they call onexperts and you interview them while there is a live feed of what's going on.So we were on the air interviewing this aviation expert when we watched thesecond plane go into that second tower which was the point I believe where theworld shifted, where we realized something different bigger and theworld was never really the same. That's right. Yeah. You know I remember I wasat home writing in a little backyard hut. That was my office at the time andmy memory is hazy about how I found out but I know that I stopped working and Iwas glued to the television the rest of the morning. I called my husband atwork because that was my instinct even though I knew what had happened in newyork. And then D. C. My instinct was to call my husband to make sure he wasokay. And you know it was one of those days when I miss my old life as anewspaper reporter of being part of a breaking news story. And you know inour after show tonight we're gonna be expanding a little bit more on ourpersonal memories and we're gonna bring you are Managing director meg walkerand she's going to share her story because she was pregnant with herdaughter Grace. And she was commuting in by train from New Jersey to lowerManhattan when the first plane hit and you are going to want to stick aroundfor the rest of that harrowing tale. But now Paula tell us about yourexperience, you were working at a station and dating at the time, is thatcorrect? I actually ladies, this is really interesting because this wassuch a pivotal moment for me personally and professionally pivotal justculturally, I, we all, as you said, patty, we all remember exactly where wewere. I was also working out in, in Dayton Ohio, newly married. We weremarried about a year. I was working in radio sales at the time, so I got adegree in broadcast communications. I emphasized in television production.I'd been out of school about four years. I really felt this burning to get backinto television news. I had interned. I have most of my experience, that'sreally where my heart was. But I allowed my fears to paralyze me. And Istill remember watching the coverage, I watched NBC all day and I was sogripped by the coverage that I told my husband, I said, this is it, this isthe moment where I need to get back into television news. So I quit my joblike a couple of days later I was making as a 25 year old, I was um I wasmaking probably $50,000 and at the time and radio sales. You guys, I wascrushing it. But I just, I had this burning desire, I had to stop. Icouldn't run away from it any longer. This dream I had to really press intomy fear. So I quit my job and I handed my resume out to all of the localtelevision stations in Dayton Ohio. I substitute taught for a while just topay the bills before I got a job and I got hired to be a production assistantmeans seven bucks an hour at the duel affiliate station in Dayton Ohio. So Istarted down here. But because I knew how to shoot and edit and and produceat, right because that was my background. I was able to um, pro Ipresented the news director probably about four months after I was there. Isaid, hey, I put this tape together, can you just take a look at it? Iwasn't expecting for him to put me on the air because I was just a lowly P A.Um, but he liked what he saw. He knew that I could, what we call one man bandin the business so we can do all of it. And um, he put me on the air and that'sreally but 9 11 for me yes, culturally. Um, you know, it's a moment that sopivotal. But for me that was the moment I decided to press into my fear and gofor this, this thing on my heart. So it's incredible Paula and mary Kay, aformer newspaper reporter. You actually are talking about something that's kindof like their dirty the dirty little secret but the thing that we don'treally talk about as journalists in public and that is on the big day, thatis where you want to be. So it's this dichotomy of this is horrible but getout of my way because it's my story,...

The Fire Bell are Fire Bell is the FireBell is going off At that point, I'd been out of newspapers for 10 years butthe fire bell was still going off and I was still thinking how could I musclemy way into this story five minutes, That's a challenge and Darren. Youbring that up and yeah, nothing made me feel more alive, you know, in my 20years of broadcasting than being on the scene and chasing breaking news, butit's also reconciling the fact that I want to be the first on the air or Iwant to get this story but but not becoming callous to to human emotions,you know? So that was that was one of the big struggles with with me andDarren, you might feel the same way seeing the absolute best in people on adaily basis, but also the absolute worst um in some ways you have toprotect yourself from that because otherwise it can affect you in so manyso many negative ways. So it's it's almost a defense mechanism to protectyourself but then at the same time like I didn't want to become callous tohuman emotions. Um so that was a delicate balance that I was alwaystrying to, to find, wow, that is so interesting that you took that and youknow, really made this incredible change in your life. Um I was in highschool so um I was, I remember like coming out, I mean it was in geometryand I, this is so bizarre, like I remember, so I guess everyone remembersso well, but I was like standing by my locker talking to my best friend aboutwhat we were gonna wear to him coming and that's what we were talking aboutand her boyfriend came up and said, oh this is super weird, I just heard thatthis little plane or helicopter or something um hit one of the twin towersand we were like so weird and kind of brushed it off, but I remember havingthis really weird feeling about it and actually instead of going to my nextclass, I went into the library and we have these huge TVs in our library thatwere like running the news all the time and I was standing in the librarycompletely by myself when the second plane hit, which was really crazy and Idon't know how like, I mean no one would have even known I was in there,but I remember for some reason like that my boyfriend at the time coming inthe library where I was standing and he was like how I'm relieving, we're goinghome and and I mean, I would never have left school, but you were so shellshocked about like what is going on and what's happening in the world and umand I think, you know, you know, all these things were happening and we werelike, what's gonna happen next and you're right Darrin about that beforeand after, like, I think especially as, you know, as a teenager, it was likethat moment, it was like that last moment that you ever really felt liketotally safe in the world because before that the world was a completelysafe place for me, you know, as a 15 year old in my mind, I mean in my mindit was, you know, like nothing that like that had ever happened before. So,Um anyway, it's just really hard to believe that it's been 20 years, butYou know, one of the things we'll talk about tonight of course is the joy thatyou've both found and reporting good and inspiring news. But over the courseof your lives as journalists, you've had to report some really difficultthings such as September 11 and its aftermath. And I think that sometimeswe forget that is Darren said and Kristen's parade article today, thepeople in front of the camera have their own stories too Darren. I knowthat a couple years after September 11, you wound up as a war correspondent inKuwait and I'd love to hear from both of you what it's like to reportdifficult news when you're struggling with your own worries or fears orfeelings about that news. So Darren, could you start us off? So when we talkabout when the U. S. Was going to invade kuwait? Yeah, just just ingeneral, I mean how it is, you know when you're warning me I would say umwell at the time again I was facing the big story. If we were going to war, Iwanted to go to war. Um kind of funny side thing. I was also the one whocovered the Oscars. So I had to go to new york and have a gallon sting. I hadtwo things going. Either we would go to war and I had my go bag or having agown that's no. Oh my gosh. Oh my word. Text to physician. Yes. So I had hopedyou gonna wear. I had both. Uh interestingly with war. Now anotherpersonal thing um as we were, you know, they don't just send you to war. Theysend you to war school. There's a lot of training, there's a lot of thoughtthat goes in it. Um I was single at the time, I consulted with my brother andsister, we decided we were not going to tell our parents that this was going tohappen. Uh It happened when they were both having big health struggles. Mydad was in one hospital in Los Angeles and my mom had been diagnosed withbreast cancer and she was having surgery the next day at anotherhospital and we went to visit my dad and we were downstairs in the cafeteriaand something came on one of the monitors about potential war. And shejust looked at me like, you know who my mother knows? And she just said she waslike, you're going, aren't you? And I said, well dad, I just messed up likeI've been caught blowing turkey or...

...something and like, so where is thismoment? So my mother's gonna breast cancer surgery. My dad's upstairs verysick. My mother looked at me and she said, so what are you gonna wear? I youknow what my mom was always about how you dress right? And she's like, wellwhat is the ladies wearing toward these days? You're going shopping, We'regoing shopping. I'm like dad's upstairs in the hospital, you're having breastcancer and we're going shopping. And she looked at me and she said, I can'tcontrol what happens to him. And told what happens in my surgery. But I'll bedamned if I'm not going to control how my kid looks on international tv. Oh mygosh, gosh, we did. We went shopping. Got a Grammy. It was always not whatyou're gonna wear. So yeah, that's right. That's my memory of that waswhat was important at that moment. Uh totally, totally hollow. What about you?I mean, that's it. Like to report that difficult news while you're jugglingyour own feelings. I, you know, I think that the stories that were hardest forme to report on, you know, Newtown, I distinctly remember doing thisinterview for 2020 and Nightline and Good Morning America and I had to tofly to, I believe it was north Carolina to interview these parents whosedaughter had been brutally murdered by the husband. And the stories thatalways got me were the ones where a parent was losing a child. Um, and, andDarren can testify to this. Um, how difficult it is. I think to be aworking mom, but to be a working mom in television is really, really hard. Um,You know, as Darren says, you have to be ready to go at a moment's notice. Um,and so there's a lot of personal sacrifice involved. Uh, 11 moment thatI can really recall was I was pregnant with my third child and this was in2014, and abc asked me to go cover the World Cup in brazil and I knew thatwould be gone about 4 to 5 weeks and I'm doing the math and I'm thinking,okay, I'm going to have a three or four month old and I've got my other kidsare six and four and I have to leave them for over a month, but also feelingthis poll. Like, well, this is part of the job. I don't want somebody else totake my job. So it's it was the hard part for me was trying to do my job.And also at the same time reconciling that I have a young family. So what Iwhat I ended up doing is I said I'll go um but I want to take my newborn withme because I was nursing him, you know? So here I am flying. I used to havethese pictures, I left my older two back with my husband, which is reallyhard to be away from your kids for you know, over four weeks. Um but I wasnursing him. I hired a nanny down there who I'd never met you guys like lookingback on and I'm like what did I do? And I'm in based in Rio and the World Cupis different than let's say the olympics because for the olympics, allof the sports take place in one city when you're at the World Cup there inthe same country. But brazil is a big country. So I'm here, here I am nursing.I'm like can you guys ship back some breastfeeding bags? I ran out to brazilbecause I would I would have to leave my baby with the nanny for like 34 daysat a time to go cover a match with Team UsA And it was just set that was youknow covering stories. But the personal effects with you know, juggling all ofthat with motherhood was really that was always a struggle for me. But interms of editorially the the stories that were tough to cover always werethose of parents just tragically losing a child. It's just you know, trying tocontain. I cried during interviews maybe twice. And um it's hard tocontain your emotions when you you know, no parent should have to bury a childtruly. But when you talk about it like that and you to Darren both of you, itreminds me of when I was a nurse, right? You don't want to become callous, butyou also want to be there for the harder cases so that you can help. Sothere's always this putting it was always the kids that did us in. Why dowe? And the thing is like what that sucks. Why do women have to choosebetween a career and having kids? You know, it's like everything kind ofhappens at the same time. I just think that it's it's not right and thingsneed to change in society and uh we shouldn't we shouldn't have to choosebetween those two. We we really shouldn't, but I'm sorry. You know, Irepresent we've talked we've all talked about it before and we've talked onthis show about how we juggled it when the kids were little and what did we do?And what about Book Tour? And what about you and Kathy when mary Kay wasuh reporter and working full time. So we've we've all we've talked about itso many times but now I want to talk about your books. So you have bothexcellent transition patty, thanks writer right over the bridge before wefell down that rabbit hole. So uh you...

...know how much I loved your book? Iremember the night you handed it to me in your house in south Carolina andsaid be honest when you read it and of course I texted you within days. But Ilove the opening scene in your book which is so powerful. You walk usthrough your meeting with abc news President James Goldstein where youtell him over a meal that you need to take a step back from the on air jobsyou had at the time and you're writing, you describe your sweaty palms hownervous you were, how he was, he was not expecting it. And you were about totell him that you needed to take this step back. And the jobs were what allof us would consider dream jobs at the pinnacle of a journalism career. So canyou tell us a little bit about that meeting and your book called out andwhat is called out mean in this context? Right, well, Pat, you have to say thatyou like the book because I'm best friends with your sister Jeannie. So Ihave to say it, I can stay um called out its name called out because I feellike I was called out of a space where I think my personal values had startedto clash with the choices that I was making and I, the opening scene, thefirst line of the book is there's no rational way to kill your career andthat's what I really felt like I was doing and I can't remember which of yousaid at the very beginning, um you know, with Darren and I, and we're both doingmuch different things now, um but you know, you reach a point where we allkind of reach a point, this pinnacle of our career and we think it's gonna lookone way and it really doesn't um and I, you know, it's that it's that old adageof what good is it for a man or a woman to lose her soul, you know, to gain theworld but to lose her. So all the process and I felt like that I hadthese dream jobs, I was anchoring Good Morning America weekends, I was cohosting the view, I mean, I was, you know, the sky was the limit for me. Umand I just looked around and I was like at what cost, you know, and, and um Ireally felt this guttural instinct, I'm a person of deep faith that I wassupposed to take a step back at the height of my career, so that's wherethe book opens with these, these feelings that knowing I have this piecethat I have to have to pump the brakes at the height of my career, but alsothis fear like what the hell am I doing? Uh you know, like what? You know, Iwasn't sure why, but I had to follow that piece and my spirit that this wasthe right thing for me and for my family. Again, the values were clashingwith the choices that I was making. Um so I knew it was a decision that I hadto be made, but I was still scared as hell to do it. And you describe it someaningfully meaning it's that David White's one of my favorite poets and hehas this phrase about let me be courageous in my terrors and when Iwent so good, so good and it's good. And when you describe that scene, I waslike, that's how your courageous in your terrors right there. But what tellus a little bit also about your podcast, you started that just recently, right?I did. So yeah, we decided to blow up our lives completely, I left abc innovember of last year, during the pandemic. And uh not so when I pump thebrakes in 2018, that was my choice. And then last year, um during the pandemic,it wasn't totally my choice to leave abc. So, you know, sometimes changesour choice and sometimes it's not, but I I say thank God that I got what Ineeded and not what I wanted. It sent us, we ended up down in south Carolinawhere my sister is and um, we are just exploring new seasons, new chapters. Ihad an opportunity um, that that was presented to me to do a podcast. And Imean I, I mean this is my podcast studio, it's really fancy ladies. Um,but this is where I record podcast. It's called the faith and callingpodcast Paula Faris faith and calling podcast And I talked to people aboutwhat they're called to do, who they're called to be. And um, but it was, itwas crazy. Again, going back to that piece, that back in 2018, that piece inmy spirit, I knew I had to pump the brakes. Um, the same thing happenedwhen we came down for what we thought would be a couple of weeks in March of2020 to south Carolina to visit my sister and my husband and I just hadthis piece, We were supposed to stay, we're like wait wide like and we hadnothing, no financial net safety net. We didn't know why we were supposed tostay here, but we just had that piece and we, we, we stepped in and steppedinto that, that moment we stepped into that space of fear and terror andcourage and as you said, the courage and terror and the doors just startedopening. Um once we did, and one of those opportunities was the podcast. Umand what's really beautiful about it is it's allowed me, you know, to be a momfirst to be able to take my kids to school. I've never been able to do that.I mean we let go of our nanny last summer. I remember the day we did it, Isaid, kids, you're gonna have to figure mom is gonna have to figure out a momon her own. And, and so I've been like,...

...mommy without a safety net. Um but I'vebeen able to put my kids first, but also have these passion projects, whichit's been a real blessing for our family. That's amazing. That's so great.I can't wait. I'm going to go subscribe to the podcast. You cry when your nannywalked out? Were you hanging on to her ankles like, oh my gosh, we had so manynannies. Well, I know I was kind of ready because I said I could figure outif I was, I got to figure out if I can do this on my own because I have, I'venever mom and I don't mean that some people might think that that's naughty,but like, you know, I've worked, I've worked and I'm going to get a job andbut I was like, I've got to figure out if I could do this on my own, I reallydo. So I might be a crappy mom. Oh, we're still later, so probably not. Ohmy gosh! Well that's awesome. So Darren, you were in the morning anchor anchor.I love telling you about yourself. I'm going to tell you about yourself allyou sit there and you can just listen and not thank you, you in the morninganchor for CNN for a long time and you had a 12 your career at the networkwhere you did some truly amazing things and then in 2000 and six you were toldyour contract wasn't going to be renewed. So as we talked about earlier,the shift away from what you were doing began a little while before that,inspired in part by what you've witnessed on september 11th and bygoing to kuwait is a war reporter after that. But when you left CNN, yousuddenly had no job and realized you hadn't been married, you didn't havekids and those were things that you really wanted. So essentially you're atthis moment in time when suddenly you realize that life didn't look the wayyou thought it would. So you realize your priorities and along the way thesepieces of your life began falling into place a journey we experiencedfirsthand with you in the pages of your book Hope possible, which is subtitleda network news anchor thoughts on losing her job finding love a newcareer and my dog always a best ever. So can you tell us event about hopepossible and about the impossibly happy life that you have now, which includeshusband and two young daughters. It does well. First of all hats off topeople like Paula who take things that they have wonderful things and let themgo because that wasn't me. Um, I was shown the door anything dramatic just,um, you know, we're not coming to your contract. And as problem is usuallywhen they say they're not going to renew your contract, you're out thedoor that day with me. They called me in in january and said, well yourcontracts not up for a year. We kind of like you to stay and we'll keep you onthe air. I think we'll let you know. So every day I came to work for ninemonths. I don't know if that was my last day. Oh my gosh, 12 years. So itwas eventually the last day. Um, I left, I, you know, I could have, I mean, Iguess as an inside baseball thing, Apollo, like the thing that you woulddo then is like you either then go stop to MSNBC or Fox or the other network,You talk to all the networks go back to the local and none of it. I was like,you know what, it's going to end eventually. So what's the thing? And Ialways loved uplifting and positive news and so it was my little sister, aslong as we're calling out sisters, I tried to sell the idea because I was onmore, I couldn't sell the idea. That was my sister who said, what are youdoing? Like why are you giving this away start a website launch company anddo it. Um and that was one of the benefits of being single. You know,there was no husband or kids or anyone to consider and I had pretty muchthanked my last contract at CNN so I just financed my own company um andstarted doing that and and did that and tell me when I've gone on too long, didthat for years and had not been on a, when I say I was single, I mean not nota date for four years like nothing, nothing. Uh and um met my now husbandthrough my two gay boyfriends, which answers the question how you're goingto be enough guy if you only hang out with your boyfriend. There you go. Theythey were too, they were and are two gay dads and their son was in the sameelementary school class as great as my now husband who was raising his youngdaughter by himself. His first wife had passed away. So he was a young dadraising, so they were dad's, you know, raising kids. Um and we met at a summerfestival and one of the dads turned to me afterwards and said, so what did youthink? Uh he's like that's more than I've heard out of you in four years. Sowhat he went on the parent contact list and he emailed front and said, hey, youknow, just wondering, you know, if you were available, which said, I thoughtyou guys were happy together like now I know you're straight, you know Darrenwho introduced to do. So now two years...

...later we started dating two years laterwe got married, I legally adopted his daughter. That was my sideways intomotherhood. And then the year before I met them when I was having a pity partymoment, I, my best friend named designed for big brothers, big sisters.So I was mentoring this little girl. Um she kind of folded into our family andended up coming to live with this whole time. So I would never marry beautifulmarried with two kids. Two girls. Beautiful Darren. Yeah, that, that'sincredible. I love Darrin, that you just kind of created the life that youwanted to do and I, I did, but I feel like it got created bigger than I couldever, it's so much bigger and better. Um the guy I got this so much biggerand better than anybody ever dated. Uh the daughters I have, I'm completelyconvinced these were, the daughters was meant to raise their was so that I hadto have a biological child, We all kind of like on this or way to each other.It's beautiful, it's beautiful, it's man man plans and God laughs. Yeah, itreally sounds like something that like, one of us would make up in a story andpeople would be like Yeah, yeah, sure, sure I wanted to write about it, whatyou write about it. I think it's like in the novel form way, um theprofessional side along the way, I picked up the syndicated newspapercolumn and it kind of journey followed the journey of dating, meeting a niceguy, getting married, becoming a mom. Like, these topics would be weeklyalong the way. I decided I wanted to be like, you guys and become a fictionwriter. So, I spent two years working on a novel. That was so bad. My bookagent like cried, I love you, but I can't submit this, this is so bad. Icyber doc kristen and made friends with her. That's how we became friends. Like,you be my friend, like, we did my book coach and she's so nice and soencouraging and gave great tips and it connects me with an editor and still itwas bad. And so I'm trying trying trying on this novel thing, the newhusbands, like, what are we doing? We're working on a novel that's notselling. And yeah, yeah. Meanwhile, every week I get these emails fromthese people about my column and so it was like, hello, This is what you'regood at writing possible is 80 of my most popular columns of that story oflooking for Love Finding love, blah, blah, blah well and before we move on,can you tell us about your new show that you are launching on the newstreaming service loco plus Good News lady. So the next thing is there's anew streaming service coming out based out of Atlanta um and the Good NewsLadies Show and it's something I wanted to for a long time, you know, eversince I left CNN all this content and all these different platforms, but thedream has always been to have the Good News tv show and back foot. Um this isgonna be and so it's launching this fall um some of it up there already,but we're kind of redoing it and giving it a new style, but it's basicallyabout, there is good news and let's talk about it and celebrate it and feelit and hopefully inspire people to show that you can do good things. So coolway to see it. Yeah. You know, Paula and Darren, both your books have somuch in common as do the two of you first, your books are about essentiallytrading in what looks like a dream job for a life of true Calling, which is ofcourse a paraphrase of Paula's subtitle, I know a little bit about thatpersonally because I gave up my lifelong dream of being a journalist tostrike out Um in 1991, so long ago for a new, terrifying life as a novelist,but you know, what are you thinking? You ended up working out for you. Youknow, I should have listened to my managing editor at the time who told meI would never be a writer, but that's another story. Oh gosh, we all have oneof those in our lives. We always a man, it's always a man in a short sleeveshirt. Anyway, this is not about me. Um you know, we discovered when we invitedPaula on the show that she's actually known Darren since 1997. You guys, I'mso old that our paths never crossed because I was out of journalism beforeyou guys ever got into it. But anyway,...

Darren Paula was your intern at CNNness, is that right? CNN I went CNN and and Sports Illustrated try to jointventure which inevitably failed. It was called CNN s I and I look at this, Iactually brought my My card. It's hilarious, it's not worth it. That's hilarious. No,I've always like, yeah, this was 1997. So my senior year in college, I wentdown to Atlanta to intern at CNN S. I. Chris Rose was there Hammond. Um DarynKagan. So I was doing a little bit of everything but Darren, I know you don'tremember me um you had shorter hair, I was really impressed with you becauseDarren was so like, she was just like the epitome of cool, calm and collected.I mean, she'd be like seconds before live, she wouldn't have looked at anyof the tapes really heredity of the copy and she's just going with thepunches. Okay. But I have a funny story about your producer and I'm totallyblanking on his name, john, he was kind of all okay. Yeah. So anyway, um soback in the day before we have like, like now when you edit, it's all umit's all digital, it's non linear. But back in the day you had tape to tape,so you're editing and splicing tape. And so we, I, my friend and I, myPierre and I were tasked with editing tape editing the highlights for Darren.And we, this is just standard at the end of the highlight. Um let's say thatyou know, you've got five highlights on there. You always want to pad the tapeout so that it doesn't go to black on the air and we didn't we didn't pat itout enough and we went to black on the air and I remember he was so pissed atus in the control room and from you didn't say a word to us about it again.You probably, you don't remember any of this stuff, but from then on, we putlike seven minutes of pat on every single tape. So we didn't go to black.But those are, those were the days where you had to slice and dice yourtape and but I was so impressed with Deer and you guys, she was just, I meanlike I've been around um anchors and reporters for a very long time andshe's got to be one of the columnist and coolest and most collected that Ibet that I've been around. I was just really taken with her. So, and here yougo. Yeah, this is what I look like. This is I was a little, a littlechubbier. I put on the senior 16 literally looked like a middle schooler.I and I lived in Buckhead at the time. I lived in Buckhead during theinternship. I tried sushi for the first time in the head. Yeah, I edited tapesthat went to black at CNN s I mean, there you go. That's where so Darren,really, you're responsible forever. Everything I've ever done. So thank you.But you never, you never made that mistake again, right. I never made themistake again. Ever. And that's the thing like that's why I say likemistakes, like the greatest successes come from your failures, you know? Yeah,I Got a cannon. I was a local news reporter, but I reinvented myself as asports anchor, which is a long story, but that's how I got into CNN. So, um,I had done that for a few years and that's at the end of it because it wasat the end of 97 I pushed over the news. Um, and I'll share like one of myhorrifying moments? So not too long And I was scared to Bill hemmer and Billwho's on Fox now? And it was early in the news part of you know being a newsanchor and I got a story and I read and it was about Kosovo and I said Kosovoand it was right when the president of CNN had come in the control room and hewas a large man and he came in the in the break in the studio. Yeah becauseit's Kosovo. My I mean I thought I was made for on the spot. I didn't but hethen he left and I turned the bill and I I thought that was horrible and youcan look on the bright side. And I said well what could that possibly be like?You'll never forget how to stay close somebody. Hey there you go. We'll neverhe's such a nice guy, like he really he's a great colleague, he's somebodythat it's rare to have to find colleagues that have your back thataren't stabbing you in the back at the same time. So it builds one of those,he's good. I love I love the stories about how you had to learn on the jobum how to uh pivot. But I wonder if both of you ladies would offer someadvice to our viewers out there. You...

...guys have done this, you ladies havedone this about taking control of your own destinies and finding a tour pathto joy. So what besides how to pronounce Kosovo. Have you learned that?You can No, no, no, no. Oh bono Darren. I'm so jealous. That's my one dreaminterview that I've not conducted by Love bono. Okay, so Darren, we'll startwith you. What what are you what's the nugget about Finding pivoting andfinding your true path of joy? Besides finding a hot guy. I didn't even have,I always say I didn't even have hot on the list. That was like an extra like,wow, okay, so it can it can be bigger than you dream. Yeah, he might belistening to. I think the biggest thing is you can't, the biggest power any ofus have is you have the power to choose to be the kind of person you want to be.So you can't shoot what happens to you. But you get to choose Grace, which I'msure Paula talks about and carries as a value, you get to choose grace andgratitude. And when you do that, a wayne dyer had a saying, when youchange the way you look at things, the things you look at change and it isliterally on a podcast I listened to this morning that was supposed to be inmy life today. That's so crazy. That's um and that's what you get to decidewhat your story is. Um all the story could be that she was like, she couldtell her she's victimhood story about her end of abc and that's it was barelya blip. There's nothing victimhood about it because that's not how shesees her story. Um and I could tell you a story how my life was not reallybecause I never had a biological child, that's not my story, my story. If Ihave the two most amazing daughters, because I have the exact story, I getto choose that story. Everybody gets to choose their own story and who theywant to. Yeah, that's about you Paula, I think, you know, just kind of umplaying off of what Darryl just said, you know, you can create the life thatyou want in many ways. Um I, my big message is that I don't have to do onething for the rest of my life, but I had to first realize that my worth andvalue and calling weren't just tied up into a job, but I it had to start withme realizing that my my worth and value are from who I am not what I do andthen giving myself the permission to try new things and to make mistakes andto be scared to do it, scared. Um you know, I'm launching a company, Ihaven't talked about, I'm launching a company and of the year and it's goingto be focused on working moms and I for so long, it's something that's been inmy heart for about eight years, but for so long I tried to dissuade myself from,from going for it because for a myriad of reasons I was busy. Um I wascomfortable in my job also, I was scared that other people would see mein a different capacity and what I see myself in a new capacity and I just,I'm like, you know what, I don't have to do one thing. If this is on my heart,I'm going to take who I am uniquely created to be, take, take those talentsand gifts into this space and do that as best as I can and Stewart it. Um,and it's okay to be scared. I say like I have a piece about it and I'm scaredabout it, but those, those aren't mutually exclusive. So um fears normal,it really is and change is normal and you don't have to do one thing for therest of your life, give yourself permission to try new things. That's agood point. That was like seven, thanks, sorry, Oh, just down to one. I feellike, you know, off of here and go do stuff needed. Exactly. Well ladies, youknow, just speaking of doing new things, you both excelled so much at bringinggood news to the world, which we kind of touched on a little bit earlier. Umand you know, I think especially because people will be tuning in a lotthis week to the news coverage of the 20th anniversary of 9 11, there will bethe sadness and the sad stories, but I think there will be some focus on thegood stories to the heroes, you know, the Children have done something tohonor a lost parents, the family members who are doing things toremember. I think there's a lot of heartwarming stories that come out ofthat sort of thing also, um quickly because I know we're kind of running up,starting to run up against time. Now, can you talk both of you a little bitabout why it's so important to share good news and why this is a mission ofyours, both of you Paula. Do you want to start? Sure, I just think it'simportant to not just tell people what you're against, but to tell people whatyou're for. And I think at the end of the day when you just peel back thelayers, there's so much more that unites us than divides us and justfocusing on that and it's really, I think it may have been Darren that,that said this earlier, it's really just a paradigm shift. Um and choosing,I mean joy and gratitude is a choice. Um but I'm big, I'm in any a gram eightif you guys are all into that, but I have a strong wing nine where I like to,I like to bring everybody to the table,...

...let's talk about it, let's hash it out,but then let's make peace at the end. You know, but I just think it's in thisclimate. Uh we need joy and we need good news more than ever. And we needto know that there is so much more that unites us. Then divides us at the endof the day. So true. And how about you, Darrin? You're you're the good newslady. I mean I think of you and I think of good, positive uplifting stories.Why is that so important to you? It's important. I'm not anti news. Theregoes the hot husband and the dog, my husband and you promised me you wouldtake care of the dog for this hour. I don't want to say that I'm anti news.I'm not anti news. I think it is so important to be informed. I just thinkit's also important to be inspired and that's why my whole ted talk is abouthow to watch the news and get inspired. I think if you watch and get informedwith the mission of getting inspired and the mission of what can I do thatgives you a natural boundary of okay, that's enough. I found out what I whatI need to go do and I've met and seeing people that have shown me what'spossible. And um I think they're both really important. It's kind of like themain course and the dessert. Yeah, that's good, great advice from both ofyou. Well you guys have definitely I think inspired everyone includingmyself to you know change your life and live better in all these amazing thingsum Christy you don't we? Yeah more, come on Chris He's a slacker. Is thatwhat I heard? Right? 27 hours in the day. Right. Yeah. But you guys also youknow you've brought so much joy to the world but you're also amazing writersand we have so many writers out there in our audience and us this is reallyare selfish time. We want to ask you for a writing tips. So is there anyadvice that you would give someone who is um looking into you know, breakinginto what you guys have done Darren. Do you want to start us off? Well if you want to be like me, don'twrite fix it because what were the exact words that? No but I'm sodisappointed, so bad. What? What? I'm sure I was going to write this one bookand I was going to be you know mary Kay I was going to be turning them outbecause people would love them. Um So I guess I'm good at is writing essays andwriting columns and if that's what I'm terrible in that so okay I have todisagree with that. I would just say um write what you feel right? What you arethe most scared of telling somebody and when it's really a big mess that lookslike throw up on the paper of the screen, go smaller, that's my one thing.I go like, ok, I'm trying to say too much. So look for the smallest thing inthat big mess of your writing and that's probably the nugget that you canactually write about. That's really good coach agency. I'm not good atwriting um fiction either. That's not really fiction is not my forte. That'sthe name of my book. Your next fiction. I like to write about real life and I'mprobably more of a quippy writer. Um and and to be honest, I had to I workedalongside somebody for my book. I would send them sample chapters because andthat's the thing, be honest about your about your writing experience and whatyou've done and what you haven't. I've written news forever and news is likewriting for the A. D. H. D. Generation, you know, get it all in in 60 seconds.So writing a book um is in the narrative and the ark is so muchdifferent. So um you know, right to your strengths and also, right, right,right, Your passions. You know, I I never wanted to write a book. You guys,my friends that have written books have said it's like the worst experience inthe world because it's like, it's like this is this is my analogy, it's likebirthing a child and then this this child you feel extraordinarily closewith, let's say something happened during the pregnancy and you just havethis extraordinary connection and then you hand the child over to strangersand the strangers can judge your child. And so that's what it's like, right,It's something that you have literally poured yourself into and then you justhand it over to somebody else to judge. And that's that was really hard for me,but right to your strengths and right to your passions. I'm writing a kid'sbook that have super passionate about, I'm writing a, hopefully writing a book,a meeting with publishers the next couple of weeks, reading a book forworking moms. So I write to your passions, I'll be ready to read it.That's great advice. Okay, maybe you could work, maybe we could worktogether on it. So there you go, all the work. And how about that? I likethat, I like that. Okay, Darren and...

...everybody else, please stick aroundbecause we have one more question and paul, are you gonna hang with us for alittle bit? I I can I've yes, I've got five minutes. I'm actually hosting umthe called out Book Club. I see that I've released the paperback edition ofthis book and it's got a discussion guide in it. So I'm taking readersthrough the six week discussion guide for six weeks and this is week two andwe're doing that at 8 30. So yes, I've got I have my instagram page. So if if umif paul disappears, just know that it wasn't us, you do something wrong,wasn't us? Okay, everybody stick around. We'll have one more question for bothof these ladies First, we want to remind all of you to check out ourfriends in Fiction Writer's Block podcast. Speaking of right podcast,we're gonna always post links under announcements each time a new one goesout. It's a lot of fun. It's totally different from the podcast from thewebcast. So if you like hanging out with us here, I think you'll love beingthere with us this week. Every friday. This past week our guy Ron Block andKristen talked to S. A Cosby about his new novel, razor blade Tears, which istearing up the new york times bestseller list. It was a big featureabout him in this past sunday's new york times. And also this week we'llhave a brand new episode, Christie patty and Ron chatted with Andrea catsand Christie barrett about their their popular facebook reading groups andspeaking of reading groups if you're not hanging out with us yet in theFriends and Fiction official book Club, you are missing out this group which isseparate from us and is run by our friends lisa Harrison and BrendaGartner is now almost 9000 members strong On September 20 patty will bejoining to discuss her novel, the bookshop at waters end and next weekjoin us right here, same time, same place to meet our guest, the oneeverybody's talking about this summer. Emily Henry, the author of the wildlypopular novel Beat Read and people we meet on vacation and then in two weeksour guest will be our friend widely cash. I know everybody out there lovesWiley Cash and his brand new book, which is stunning, is called WhenGhosts Come Home. He will be live at an independent bookstore in charlottenorth Carolina with a live audience for our show. It's the first time we'veever done that. So if you're ever wondering about our schedule, it isalways on our friends and fiction website, it's always in our newsletterwhich you can sign up for through a link on our website and I know thatwe've barely talked about this, you guys probably don't know but patty andmary. Kay and I all have winter books coming out and are partnering withNantucket bucks for to do a winter wonderland subscription box, We weregonna do 600 and they all sold out. So we added 50 more. Um the new uh littlefree gift is not a coffee mug, it's a really cute tote with this custom logothat we had made. Um and these fun hot chocolate spoons. Um and there are onlyabout 10 of those left. So if you were wanting a large box um yeah, I justheard from tom we've got like 10, so if you want a subscription box, Get on itbecause there are 10 left. So and hang tight because in just a few minuteswe're gonna be announcing this week's merch star on our after ship. That'sright. Okay. Now for the last question, the one that we love to ask Darren andPaula, I'm gonna go with Paula first just in case she has to fade on us,Paula. What what about the history, what was your writing life? What werethe values around reading and writing in your childhood? My family's readersor writers, not my mom was a big reader. I always gravitated towards nancy drewand he sort of mystery novel and that's what I like. I bet when I think aboutwhen I read today, I have to have a page a page. Uh I just have to have apage turner, some sort of thriller. My favorite book that I've read in thelast two years was the silent patient, I think I ignored my entire family for24 hours and read it. So, but that's what I gravitate towards. Um I mean Ilike to read other genres but thriller, mystery, that's me. So it's awesome andDarren. What about you? What were the values about reading and writing inyour childhood? I would say it was by example, my mom was a big reader, healways had a book. So I think that's where I kind of fell in love withreading and then the reading and writing stuff always came more easilyto me than the math and the science. Um, and yeah, still still a reader readertoday. I think my genre. I love my...

...favorite or anything. Anythingmultigenerational. Uh, I love immigrant stories. Um, yeah, and I guess I don't know if youask this, but I am a tablet reader now. I'm not a book reader which you find myyeah, really I can't read on a tablet. Yeah. To me that means my books go withme everywhere. And then my book I have that happened. I like to bend the pagesand like, I like to I Yes, exactly. You wanna tablet. Alright. So to all of youout there, we encourage you to grab Darren's hope possible. And paul iscalled out, especially this week when we need to be reminded of the power ofgood news and our own potential to find a truer path in our own lives. So thankyou ladies so much. You so nice to have you and y'all were amazing. You know,and we're so grateful that you both opened up. I feel like we both, youboth had so many valuable, wonderful things to say and we're really, youknow, this will be to be continued when Darren and I plan our get together right. I love that we find out thaty'all got together without uh yeah, there's gonna be trouble here. Okay,let's not tell them. We just get on social media, we will know, awesome.Thank you. Good night for everybody. Thank you All right, everybody outthere, we will see you all in a minute for the after show. You'll want tostick around for this one as well. Be sharing our own memories of September11 and meg are dear friends and managing director who was in lowerManhattan that day will be sharing her memories to we would love to also hearyour memories in the comments. You know, we all, we often go back and read themafter the show. We love hearing when you share your thoughts with us too. Sodon't forget to come back next week. Same time. Same place as we talk withEmily Henry, the author of one of the hottest books this summer and goodnight everybody, we will see you in the after show in 30 seconds. Yeah, yeah. Hey, wow, ladies to show, wow, sointrospective and they just both had so many valuable, meaningful things to say.They both have done the thing we talk about doing, you know, brave enough tomake a change and brave enough to Yeah, they're amazing. Yeah, I saw somethingthis week, Somebody wrote on something I posted on instagram that said leapand the net will appear both of them. I love that. I had not that before, butnow it's my favorite, I heard it and then Jason Mraz song for the first timeand I loved it. I've never heard it until then. It's a joseph Campbellthing. It's about that, about the hero's journey and about mythology andabout following your bliss and just started, I didn't mean Jason Mraz madeit up. I could just keep it and guess what? He might not have been theoriginal, like he's probably originally a bugs bunny thing. I was up likesomething really um third and we're like quoting, I love it. Okay, so wehave a lot to get to in the after show because I really do want to have meg,come on and talk to us about september 11th, but quickly before we do thatChristie, do you want to announce our merch star? Yes, So if you guys do notknow, we have some really fun friends and fiction merchandise. I was gonnawear my T shirt tonight, but I felt like this was like sort of a seriousshow, so maybe I wouldn't, but we have t shirts and these adorable wine citieswere actually sold out of coffee tumblers right now, but we have somenumerous releasing really, really soon that you guys are gonna be excitedabout. Um but so every week for the next few weeks we are going to bepicking a merch star of the week. Um This week's March star is winning acopy of mary Kay andrews, the santa suit. So Sean, can you show our pictureof our merch star. Susie, baldwin armored star of the week. So thank youSusie for being such a big supporter. So I know she looks so good and I'mwith the Pearl in it is amazing. Um but anyway, yeah, so thank you to all ofyou who have supported us and Warner emerge and shout out the show. We loveyou guys and Susie. Um do you want to give me your address? I'll get yourspecial prize. I think you emailed me but you can put your pictures on ourfacebook group. You can email them to...

...me. You can Dm me, I'm getting them allover the place. So thank you guys for all of your support. This is awesome.Congratulations cuz that's awesome. And she's such a frequent so that's great.So a lot of our events to which is not great. Okay. Um Sean, would you like tobring Megan, would you mind doing that? Hey, good to see you? Well, meg we knowyou have we talked a little bit about our stories, although I realized Ididn't write it into the script for me to talk about mine. So I'm just beingsecretive about my 9-11 story apparently. But no meg can you tell usa little bit about your memories of September 11? Sure. Before we startthough, Patti, you just said that you're so proud of Darren and Paula fortheir reinvention stories. I mean every one of you guys have done the sameexact thing. I mean none of you started out your careers as best sellingauthors. So um oh, like, well I think that's why it's so inspiring. Make likewhen, when they're talking about it, we're all going back in our heads tothose moments where we said, I'm going to try this, I'm going to do this rightand scary. And then you hear them talking about it and you're thinking,whoa, that really was this like dive in the deep end without a swimming lessonkind of thing. So they're really inspiring. You said it meg, you did it.I mean you and reinvented yourself and your career and went out on your ownand yeah, lemons into lemonade thing. Yeah, yeah. And we get to drink all thelemonade lemonade. Thanks man. True. So make did you want to tell us what youremember september 11? I was reading your story today on, on facebook andlike I just had tears in my eyes thinking about it. Yeah. I mean it'sstill So raw and it dawned on me before when it hits me every year because mydaughter will be 20 and in eight weeks. And uh, So when everyone's like, canyou believe it's been 10 years, can you believe it's been 20 years? You know, Ibelieve it. Absolutely. Because I have a marker on my calendar of exactly, youknow when it impacted my life personally. But so yeah, I mean I waspregnant, very pregnant with Grace at the time and taking the train from, Ilived in stomach New Jersey and I was taking the train to lower Manhattan, Iworked at penguin and so that was on the corner of the house tin and Hudson.So after, you know after everything happened, that house and ST was thatwas the demarcation line where you weren't allowed to go back into thecity below house in ST so our offices were closed um for a couple weeks afterthat. But so yeah, I mean I had been taking a little easy on myself becauseit wasn't the easiest pregnancy in the world and I was super swollen and justa hot mess. I had one pair of shoes that fit me, it was not pretty and Iwas late to work and so I was on the train looking, you know, I took thetrain from Summit to Hoboken and then in Hoboken, took the path and then gotout of Christopher Street and walked a few blocks down, that was my dailycommute and I looked out the window and there weren't that many people on thetrain because we were like the late goers were the lazy bums and There was smoke pouring out of one ofthe towers, so that shows you it was you know after 846 um and so we were all like what do youthink that is just talking amongst each other, we all started calling whoeverwe could, so I called Dave, he was home, he worked from home and I said you needto turn on the tv, something's happening, there's smoke pouring out ofone of the towers of the trade center. And so he's standing in our living roomon the phone with me watching as I'm watching out the window of the trainand right that second the other tower got hit as we're both like watching alot. Yeah, and so he says um when that train pulls into Hoboken you need like,I don't know what the hell is going on, you need to come home like just get onthe train and come back. So this is exactly what Paula and Darren weresaying like you just didn't know what it was at the time and you thought, Ithought I've been to work in weird situations before, I've been to work inblizzards and power failures and you know, it's not like me to not show upfor my people, for my boss, for my employees, so I was like no, I'm gonnago, I'm just gonna go and we'll see what this is, I'm sure it's just somefreak thing. And so I got the Hoboken and I got on the path train and thedoors closed and I thought to myself like, oh my God, I think I just madethe biggest mistake of my life because who knows what's happening in the cityand help me to get back out and so I was just very glad that it pulled intoChristopher street and that the doors open and then I walked up onto thestreet into daylight. But you know,...

...then then it was what everybody, you knowwhat you see on tv. I don't, there's no point in following in the like thesights and the sounds of the day. But it was um, it was a crazy day, you know,I had to, it was really hard to get a phone call out. Everybody was worried about me becauseI was pregnant. Mm Sorry, Right. So really the only way to getout of the city in a moment like that within a power failure. I mean, youknow, terrorist attack um, is by boat or on the spot. So the whole day becameabout like how is anybody going to get out of here? You know, how are we goingto safely get to? When I lived in New Jersey. The only way is across theriver, the only way across the river on a boat, you know, I have co workers whowalked 100 blocks are over the Brooklyn Bridge and into the outer boroughs. Andum, so I ended up taking the boat home that day, like way later in the day. Um,you know, hmm, I had coworkers who had Children working in the Towers who hadum, husbands, you know, wow and meg talk a little bit about thepeople who actually let you get on that. Very Yeah, well, and that, you know,it's funny, like, the weird thing to remember about a day like that becauseI always remember the clothes I was wearing, uh huh, I had on her all blackand then over the black I had on like an open button down shirt, which Inever would have taken off, like, you know, walking around with a big giantbelly and a black cat, it was warm and I was pregnant. And so we startedwalking in this big group to try to get to the boat, which was, you know, far,it was, it was a long time. Um we had to walk Up to like the 30s, so, youknow, I mean if you know in Manhattan, it's that's pretty far. Um and so therewas a lot of people waiting to get on the boat, everybody, you know thestories you hear are true, Like everybody was very calm and respectfuland um they were, you know, it was peacefulfor sure, two years later, oddly enough, I was also pregnant with my subjectduring the blackout and that was a different story, were not very nice,but I Don't believe those stories. Um but anyway, I got to the ferry and youknow, the line was hours long and I had just walked 30 blocks and I was veryvisibly pregnant and so one of the people that worked at the ferryterminal, um we're like letting me into the front of the line, but I didn'twant to go alone, obviously wouldn't have been alone on the boat. There werea lot of people, but there were people covered in ash from head to toe. Therewere people who had been there In it and you know, it was like a war sceneand so I just grabbed this kid who worked with me, he was like 21. I waslike this is my husband anyhow, he has to come with me. And so I grabbed thisfor Justin and I'll never forget him because um you know, he saved himself afew hours of waiting on line for the boat fine to my husband and my baby. UmYeah, I mean, I don't know, I I tend to not like tofollow in the actual memories of it and rather would instead think about like,you know, what, what are the takeaways, you know? Um Yeah, there's been a lot,there's been, you know, good ones for those of us who are lucky enough to tonot be directly impacted that day. For sure. Yeah. Uh huh. I mean it's weird to be in myshoes because there's a lot of people in my life who like I'm the closest onethey know who was, you know, to the action to me. I own there was a longtime after where it but like, I don't I don't have a story like that's not, youknow, so many people that I knew, neighbors, you know, friends, lostpeople and you know, I thought this isn't my like I don't really have asurvivor story, but everybody, everybody, Well in 20 years later when,when we watched the imagery and we see the things that we've seen every yearfor 20 years, people covered in ash, people going for the boat. Peoplewalking over Brooklyn Bridge, we can forget that it was a person you megwalker pregnant with a daughter who is now 20 right? Like there's, we've seenit so many times that we forget about or we can until you tell it again andit goes back to the person, back to the individual and of course I'm thinkingabout poor Dave at home uh, to death...

...about you. Yeah. You know, and my mom,my grandmother, like everybody was just a wreck and it was really hard to get aphone call out. There was a lot of, there was a lot of time that stretchedout of where no one knew anything, you know? And um, so yeah, that Pepper wasnot great. I mean, I was the best reunion ever because I've walked to thetrain from our house and Summit and you know, he knew at that point that I wastrained, I was on. So he walked across the park to me, it was like loversacross the cornfield. You just couldn't, you know, I couldn't wait to get backto my people and then, you know just, you know, the survivor's guilt type ofstuff of like all people that didn't know about that and to look at theparking deck at our train station, all the cars that were left okay, thosecars were still there and every car has a story, you know, you're absolutelyright. Yeah. You know, weeks like I said, because work our offices wereclosed and this was pre there was no real ability to work remotely then.Yeah, so the world kind of stopped, I mean just became obsessed with the news,but you know, I'm just going to like um pre k you know what are the, what arethe breathing classes that you take when I'm like I said to dave like, youknow every day watch the news and you cry and then you'd open the paper andyou cry and I said like I just started to be worried about like what is griefdue to a pregnancy, you know? And then, you know, you start thinking like, whatis this world that I'm bringing this kid into? So there was so muchheaviness, you know? Um but I think, you know, looking back there were likereally valuable lessons to about like never leave without saying goodbye, youknow, never leave that, I love you that kind of stuff and you know, I also think it's reallybeautiful that, you know, when you were talking about getting on the boat, youwere talking about people helping people and being good to each other andpeople letting you go because, you know, you were very, very pregnant and youknow, it's it's I don't know, that's one of the things that always strikesme about these horrific stories is that you also hear these stories of goodnessand of humanity and of the best of people, kind of, rising to the surfacein the darkest times. Absolutely, I mean, and that was all around, you know,I mean, and that was overwhelming in its own way, but it was just really,it's like, Mr Rogers says, right, like, yeah, they're always there and therewas so much goodness and there was so much unity after that, as you remember,I think people have this image, people outside of new york have this image ofhardened, callused new Yorkers who would step on you to get to a bagel. Imean, all of those, I mean, there's such such really unfair cliches,because I I've rarely had anybody in new york. Yeah, but yeah, maybe that'sbecause I present as a stupid rube. Not at all, wow, that's powerful, It'sinteresting because I think another stereotype we have is of the french,right? Like you think of definitely no french people, you know, beinginsulting to american tourists, it's not a stereotype I've ever experienced,but, you know, that's the entire um and but I lived in paris this summer afterthat. So, you know, less than a year later and I cannot even begin toquantify the number of people who, when they heard my american accent came overand put a hand on me or squeeze squeeze my hands. I mean, it was probablynumbered in the hundreds just hearing my accent, People would come and say,I'm so sorry for what happened to your country because it was so fresh in intheir minds and I will carry that with me always because it was just as dark,as awful as that time was. I think there was a brief period of time wherewe were together as we were one, I mean it was truly, I mean it must havehappened over 100 times were strangers in France, would hear my accent andcome over and say I'm sorry or I hurt for your country or I take for you orhow are things in America? You know, it was, and I've never experienced thatsince I've been back countless times. It was just in that window of timeafterwards where it was still fresh in our hearts and minds and you know, thatreally meant something that's awesome. Yeah, that's really interesting. Omegathank you on mute.

My dogs are barking. So, um I thinkfrom the years since um you know, I would, I would struggle like on theanniversary and stuff and what's the right way to what, what's the rightthing to say, what's the right thing to do And it's for me it's been differentpretty much every year. But like, I used to resent based really resent thelike, never forget all that and I felt like everyone who wasn't in it wouldwould say these what felt Goldman right, Right. And I was like, if you werethere, you could never possibly forget, but like, honestly softened on thatover the years because I feel like you have to show people some grace. Likeeverybody has their own way. Everybody has the story grieving and of dealingwith horrific occasion and for them it helps to I don't know why for somepeople it helps to show the horrible pictures over and over again. I justchoose not to look at them. I won't get mad at that anymore. I'm just gonnachoose not to look at that. But like, you know, everybody's got their ownstory to tell in their own piece of it. And so, you know, I you know, I havefriends who was with today who I worked with a day who are like, I don't go onsocial media on 9 11. I get mad at everybody. I don't want to hear it, Idon't want you know, I don't want I don't want to wallow and I think, youknow, some years that's what you need to do. Some, some days, that's what youneed to do. Some people that's what they need to do. So just all right,have a little mercy and compassion. Yeah. Oh sorry go ahead. And I was just gonnaask meg if it's any if it's a coincidence that the daughter you werepregnant with, it's named Grace. You know, I just love that name but youknow, I had never made that connection. But um she was the calmest baby too,which I think was just such a blessing because she, I feel like she came outof the room just smiling and like then a close like never like I don't think Ihave it in me to feel I would be opposed to that of my girlfriend cameout that way. Not one not one. I wasn't willing to try it 1/4 time but it'snever too late patty know beyond too late. Maybe. I know I posted about thisbut my son just got a dog. So I have a grand dog and it is a super zen b Iwhen you were like people have posted about their grand dog, I have a zengrand dog. Does that count meg. Thank you for sharing that. That is abeautiful red bits and pieces of it that you've written about but to hearyou narrate it like whoa. Just like a gut punch. Yeah. You know, I think ithelps people to hear some of that. And another thing I was Had very mixed feelings about the 9-11museum and memorial, not the memorial, but the museum. Um, and uh, I wouldnever go, I don't need to go, I lived through it. I don't want to see thatuntil my kids were like in middle school and they, you know, they hadassignments, ask somebody, you know, who was somehow involved in 9 11, likewhat their memories are. And so we talked about it And they heard thestories and they've heard the stories, bits and pieces over the years. Butlike when they were both in 8th grade, they did this whole unit on it. And sothen they were very interested in going to the museum. So we did do that. Well,I have to say, um, for anyone who hasn't been. Um, it's it's certainlynot a lovely museum experiencing out there to admire any beautiful artworkor creativity or you know, marvel at someone's talent. But I imagine it'ssimilar to the holocaust museum where it's, it's a very immersive experienceand having lived through that day. I can tell you, they they bring it backwhether you want this fair warning. I mean they bring it fully back to life.Um, you know, that's an honoring though. Just like the holocaust museum when Iwent out last night at first you're like, wait, why would and then yourealize it's an honoring. Like there is something about, you know, it's likethe book you write kristen it's an honoring, It shocked me. But I think,you know, it's an important thing to see. I think if you want to and if youknow you're interested in, it's very well done. And with the four of us were,my family went and I think something very happy afterwards. Like we took awalk over the Brooklyn bridge on a beautiful sunny day and got pizza inBrooklyn, you know, try to cleanse your...

...mind after. But it is um, I'm not madat the museum anymore. I think I'm not mad at the museum anyway. It's animportant thing for the future too because now we have a whole generationof young adults coming who have no memory of that, you know what I mean,who were either too young or weren't born, you know, So that's what museumsfor them. It's not for people who may have been through and then, you know,but then, you know, to go with my kids and have them ask me questions about itand be able to answer it. It was, it was a valuable experience. It reallywas. And so, I mean, I think whatever people want to do, whether they want togo or not go or whether they want to tattoo never forget on their arm or youknow, post ugly pictures, like whatever it gets you through the day. I, Irespect it. Like, you know, to each his own kind of the thing, wolf. All right, What a powerfulevening. I'm so glad you came on and shared that. That was just but aninspiring show tonight. I mean, just what was going to be watching thatagain? It was going to say I'm going to re watch it or it was awesome, afascinating to hear this story from behind the camera because you watchedsometimes he's covering Newtown 9 11 or any of it, like Yeah, human to thinkthey have kids. You know, when I was working for people I covered rememberthe terri Shiavo story. She was um she was on life support, her parents wantedto keep her on and her husband wanted to take her off. I was reporting thatstory for people and you're supposed to stay detached, right? Um but it wassomething that, like, a lot of cameras were on and the day that they came outto announce in a press conference in front of the hospital that the courthad ruled against the parents and they were taking her off of life support. Um,I burst into tears. I mean, like, I had just gotten so invested myself in thestory, which you're not supposed to do. Um which was all fine that I burst intotears except that I burst into tears on national television. And so Iimmediately got a call from my editor saying, could you at least try toappear impartial. So it's hard. It's hard when you, you know, because as asa journalist pretty bad at it. Obviously. Way that was, that was notmy strong suit meg. You're irish. We can't help it. Nothing we can do. Andthen we turn all red and our faces get all red. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. I've neverbeen able to cry bread. No, no, I'm the worst prior. And like the most obviouscrier too. If I had been a subtle crier, nobody would have noticed. But it wasway I don't think any of us are subtle. Anything to be all right. I think thatsums it up and maybe that's why this was the right career for us where youcare we get with your heart. Right? Yeah. All right ladies here, Amazing.Thank thank thank all of you. Listen, Good night ladies. Thank you. Yeah, thank you for tuning in, Join us everyweek on Facebook or YouTube where our live show airs every Wednesday night atseven p.m. eastern time and please subscribe to our podcast and follow uson instagram. We're so glad you're here. Yeah.

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