Friends & Fiction
Friends & Fiction

Episode · 1 year ago

S1E2: Patti & Kristin with Michael Farris Smith & Rachel Hawkins

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Patti Callahan Henry and Kristin Harmel talk about Modern Takes on Literary Classics with Michael Farris Smith about his novel, NICK, about Nick Carraway from The Great Gatsby, and Rachel Hawkins about her novel The Wife Upstairs, a modern retelling of Jane Eyre. 

Welcome to Friends and fiction, five best selling authors and the stories novelist Mary Kay Andrews, Christine Harmel, Christie Woodson, Harvey, Patty Callahan Henry and Mary Alice Munro are five longtime friends with more than 80 published books. To their credit. In 2020 they created friends and fiction to provide author interviews and fascinating insider talk about publishing and writing and to highlight independent bookstores. These friends discussed the books they've written, the books they're reading now and the art of storytelling. If you love books and you're curious about the writing world, you're in the right place. Friends and Fiction is sponsored by Mama Geraldine's Bodacious Foods. Cathy Cunningham was a successful but unfulfilled radio executive in Atlanta. One night, while sipping wine and snacking on expensive cheese straws, she realized her mama Geraldine's own cheese straw recipe was far superior. The idea for Cathy's company was born. Mama Geraldine's Cheese straws now come in six varieties, and they're the best selling cheese straw in the United States. Plus, the cookies are melt in your mouth, delicious yummy snacks and a woman owned empire. Now that is something that we hear it. Friends and fiction can get behind try them. You'll be so glad that you did get 20% off on your online order at Mama Geraldine's dot com with the code Fab five Snack on y'all Welcome to the Friends and Fiction podcast. Today we're talking about writing novels that include literary characters. Ah, modern take on literary classics on Patty Callahan, Henry and I'm Christine Harmel. Today we're privileged to have with us both. Michael Ferris Smith, the author of Nick and Rachel Hawkins, the author of The Wife Upstairs. The former is a novel about Nick Carraway from The Great Gatsby. The latter is a modern retelling of the classic Jane Eyre. Both were two of the most anticipated books of early 2021. Let's start Today with Michael and his amazing book, Michael Farris. Smith is an award winning writer whose novels have appeared on Best of the year lists with Esquire, Southern Living Book, Riot and numerous others. He's been named in indie. Next list. Barnes and Noble discover an Amazon Best of the Month selections. He's been a finalist for the Southern Book Prize, the Gold Dagger Award in the U. K. And the Grand Prix in France. E three Grand Prix. Loved. We're going to skip that one in...

...the UK, and his essays have appeared with The New York Times, Bitter Southerner, Gardening, Gunn and Moore. He lives in Oxford, Mississippi, with his wife and daughters. His newest novel, Nick, which came out on January 5th, is a prequel to The Great Gatsby. Michael Farris Smith pulls Nick Carraway out of the shadows and into his own spotlight in this fascinating look into Nick's life before West Egg. Michael, Welcome. Thank you. It's nice to talk to you guys. Thanks for asking me to be on. We're thrilled. So let's dive right in. Why, Nick, can we just start there? What was it about Nick that drew you to him? What was it it in Nick that made you want to know more? It was something that if you would have told me five minutes before it hit me, that that's what I was going to do. I would have never believed you, ever. I mean, I think it's just an example of you being so grabbed by something that it won't let go of you. And you have no choice but to do it. No matter how crazy, it seems. And, uh, I think I had to deal with that a little bit, too. It came after my third reading of gas. Be probably about five years ago. I had read it previously when I was around 20. Could not have cared less about it, didn't get it, understand its tossed it aside. I read it again after about seven or eight years later, after I had actually lived abroad for a few years and was reading a lot of the lost generation because I was living in Paris and France moving around Europe quite a bit. And if you have started to get it, then I started to see things in it then that I really wasn't expecting, or I guess that's just what time does to us, and then I really I put it aside. And then 14 years, 15 years later, I picked it up again and read it, and it seemed to just speak to me on every page is I was going along when I got to the end of Nick, and he realizes it's his birthday. He's forgotten. He's about to turn 30. He just really struck me how detached he Waas and how disillusioned he waas. And it hit me like there's something like, really intense going on with Nick that I've never liked realized in this book before. And then he goes on to describe the upcoming decade of his thirties as a decade of loneliness and just how isolated alone he felt. And you know, it never waas the glitz and glamour of Gatsby that interested me. It was those feelings of loneliness and isolation and detachment that, um and depression. I think I mean, a lot of those things that I know that I've I've experienced in my life, and I think a lot of people have experienced and I just kept thinking about it to the point. So where the very simple thought did cross my mind. It would be really interesting if someone were to write his story because he tells us so little about him. And just almost before I could finish the thought, I realized I was going to...

...do it, and I was just going to deal with it. However, I was going to deal with it, But that's how that's how we came to Nick. I suppose it's so fascinating. I always say that if we follow our curiosity, that's where we find our stories. And if you would just let that thought float by, we wouldn't have this extraordinary story. So Well, I mean, you're exactly right. Following your curiosities and being willing to take chances to I think is another great lesson. I learned through this. I mean, there was two ways. I mean, I realized all the stuff that would come with it if I did it like in the immediacy, like right away. Like almost that was my next thought. Almost after having the idea and thinking Do I really want, um, I going to do this? But it was follow this thing, go after this thing that I was so kind of like him, kind of like strangely mostly drawn to with all the talent and grit and guts that I could take to it and do it or shrink back from it, be intimidated by it and always wonder what would have happened for me. That was the easy decision. I think we are very glad that you decided to do it, too. It's such an amazing book and an amazing, amazing way to look at it and a great reason to look at it that way. And I think something in particular that really resonates now in 2020 slash 2021. I think a lot of the emotions you just described her things that resonate in all of us. So you wrote about Nick A life divided, a mind divided to me. This was such a beautiful line that I had to stop and read it again. How did you from reading the Great Gatsby, get to this inner working and insight into Nick's life? Was it completely imagined, or did you see some of that? And Nick originally, I think, probably a little bit of both. You know, I think those breadcrumbs that he kind of gives us throughout Gatsby and also the way I was interpreting his character and the thoughts he was having. Those were kind of, I guess, the beginning pieces for me. But the thing that struck me about it, and which seemed like a logical jumping off point for me, was the war and his experience in the war because, you know, there's a line from Hemingway's moveable feast in which he says, we didn't trust anyone who wasn't in the war, which speaks volumes to the mood and feel of that group of people who went through that. One of the first connections Nick and Gatsby make is they ask each other. Were you in the war? Yeah, and they tell each other where they were so immediately. Like, that was the thing that struck me. Of course he was in the war and of course, he would be suffering from the things that people suffer with who survived the war and come back home. And then when I began to read about World War one of what trench warfare was actually like, I mean, way know about it from history books and we see depicted in the movie. But, man, when I started to read about what really went on, I was just It was horrific and amazing, And so I thought, Well, I'm going to start there, put him in World War One and let's see, and to me, that when I when I had the notion to start there with...

...him, like it almost like it, it opened up for me from that moment on. Like to really create a young man who is not only going to be dramatically affected by the war, but also his opinions on things they're going to change also, if if he's able to survive it, which we know he does so well. I had to kind of these these bits and pieces of who he waas like. I think there was also quite a blank canvas there to kind of create how he how he comes to make the type of interpretations that we see him making in Gatsby. What an incredible way to build a character, though kind of from the back front as opposed to the other way, I starting at the end and building him out from the beginning. What an interesting thing that must have been to do as a writer. Very much so. You know, I'm kind of quick thought in my immediacy of it. Waas, um, and the very first kind of words I wrote of Nick in the days after I had the idea I had just put him on a train, had him coming back home. And originally I thought, he's coming back home after Gatsby and I thought, Well, no, I don't want to tell us what happens after that. He's already told us what happens after e. I mean, it's Gatsby, right? And so I changed that, like, just in a couple of hours. That kind of struck me. And I changed it to know he's on the train going back home, coming home from the war and that really just like this. They just kind of open things up immensely for me because I didn't have to react to the man who reacted to Gatsby. Now I just had to create the man who walks up and shakes hands with gets, you know, sometimes we don't as authors see what we're really doing at first, Um, what you just said about the breadcrumbs. If we follow the breadcrumbs of our curiosity, sometimes we don't see things until hindsight. So it might sound crazy to say that a story about 1920 helps us in 2020. But it does the trauma, the overwhelming feelings, the the blues or the Depression, their hopelessness, the crumbling of ideals and ideas in our lives, and what we held close that disappears with without our control. And we know that we hold our trauma. If we don't face it. You know, one of my favorite books on that is the book about the body holds the secrets of the body tells the stories. And these were very modern day problems, but but blown up because it's a war. Did you see that tie when you were writing it? Did you see how much it would affect today and help in many ways help us today to read about how we dealt with it? Well, that's a good question. Get observation. One of the interesting things about this novel was I wrote it five years ago and turned it in, and everybody was like, You did what I said, you know, and because I didn't tell anybody I was doing it. So I was not interested in the copyright issue at all. Never looked it up, never thought about it. And then when I turned it in, they were...

...like, This is often but we got to sit on it for five years. Yeah, eso We locked it down and zipped our mouths and sat on it, you know, for five years. So to get back to the question when I went to revise it last year, me and my editor and I started reading it again. Hey, and I both I cannot believe how timely it felt themes a country in transition, the depression, the loneliness, the PTSD that we know so much about. The crumbling of ideals, the lack of faith and institutions. Just the distrust, the doubt. I mean, I was really Mesmer quite mesmerized by it. How a country coming off a pandemic or in a pandemic. Also, that was also a parallel that was there, which I didn't put in the original draft and then went back and put in in the revision. It was really I mean, I think it's it tells me that we haven't changed that much, you know, um which is kind of horrifying all the lessons we've learned in this country or should have learned in this country over the past 100 years. And, you know, I've had five years to sit around and think about this novel, and it's kind of occurred to me, probably over the last six or eight months, my experience with it, even it being 100 years old and watching me taking Nick through those streets of 1919 1920 and the way he felt and how it felt so like in tune with a lot of things we've been feeling in this country, I don't know. We're in a pattern of that, you know, it's hard to get out of it. And for whatever reason, we keep making these loops. And it seems to me that perhaps that's the why Gatsby remained so prevalent is maybe more people than I think See it like I do. Maybe it's not the glitz and glamour that people get out of it. Maybe it is these feelings, but they attached with Nick and the other characters in it, because everybody in there is on the edge of crumbling at any moment. The lifestyle, the relationships, everything in that novel is just on the edge of failure, which it does. It all eventually crumbles. And maybe that's the thing that makes Gatsby so timeless and makes people continue to read it and be attracted to it, not the mansions and the moonshine and the prohibition and all the glitz and glamour apart. Maybe it's those feelings and emotions of it. The people connect with, like, similarly, that I did that in the way that I did that keeps it transferring from one generation to the next. I think that whenever a story hits us in the solar plexus of recognition of ourself, it's a lot more powerful than just the plot or the mansions of the glitz. And that story didn't hit you in the right place until you notice that. So I think you're right. And you know, Michael, it's interesting to hear you talk about coming back to the manuscript for Nick five years later and seeing it and experiencing it in a different way, even though you were the one to write it. Because it sounds like that's what happened to you with the Great Gatsby also, and it's something I've noticed,...

...too. And I think Patty, you and I have talked about this. This idea that there's a wherever you are in your life is such an influence on how you read the books, and sometimes you have to be at the right spot to get the right things out of the books. It's just interesting to hear your experience, even with your own work, with that. So Michael, I wanted to ask you about the love story in this book. So, my goodness, The love story with Nick and Ella. Patti and I talked about this, too, and we think it echoes in small ways The story of Daisy and Jay Gatsby Was this something you did on purpose? I don't know. On purpose. That's always a very tricky It occurred to me about Nick and his willingness to go down the road so quickly with this thing between Daisy and Gatsby was there had to been something that would make him believe this was even possible, you know? So I wanted to give him something that made him believe it was possible. And for me l a was this, you know, And they're too desperate People who find themselves in a desperate time and a desperate place in Paris and it's not gonna end well. I mean, I think we know that for him to be able to open his heart, mind upto what Gatsby is after and what Daisy and what they're kind of dreaming them. And that's very idealistic way that we also know it's not gonna happen. I felt like something led him to be able to take that bait so quickly, and I think his relationship with Ella was that thing for me that made it possible that he would fall in line with with what they want him to do and what they're asking him to be a part off. So you really did take all those breadcrumbs laid out for you in Gatsby and assemble them into this beautiful, beautiful book? Yeah, I hope so. I mean, I tried very hard to do that. Yeah, e mean, the thing that struck me about Nick all the way through Guess where he's scarred. I mean, there's no doubt about it. He has been through some shit, man. Emotionally, psychologically, romantically. I mean, however you want physically. I mean, he's been through a lot, and I think, yeah, I think to I wanted to give him his own life, you know, always seeing guests because his projection of this thing I wanted him to have his own life because every one of us has. We have our own lives. And no matter how quiet we are, we have our own complexities and issues and heartbreaks and joys and triumphs. And I just wanted him to have his own life. Well, Michael, this is an extraordinary reimagining. Thank you not only for this novel, but for talking to us. Of course. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. Now we welcome Rachel Hawkins, the New York Times best selling author of 11 novels for young adults, including the hugely popular Hex Hall Siri's. She studied gender and sexuality and Victorian literature at Auburn University, where I also studied undergrad. And she currently lives in Alabama, which also happens to be the setting of her new novel, The Wife...

Upstairs, which, just like Michael's book came out on January 5th, is actually Rachel's adult debut, named an indie Next pick and a number one library reads Pick for January. It's a twist on the classic Jane Eyre Entertainment Weekly calls it compulsively readable, a gothic thriller laced with arsenic. And might we just add that it debuted on The New York Times best seller list in the number four spot? How amazing is that? So welcome, Rachel, can you begin today by telling us a bit about the book and what made you take on Jane Eyre? So the wife upstairs is such a weird project in so many ways, Um, the ways that it came to me were sort of unusual where basically, um it came to my agent first. The idea. Somebody had contacted her and was like, Do you have any clients who might want to take a run it like a modern Jane Eyre and I had never done adult and I had never done thrillers. But I have a very, very good agent who, as soon as she saw the pitch, was like, Well, this sounds absolutely bananas. Who do I know who can do bananas? Oh, it's Rachel s o. She passed it on to me and I immediately was like, Yeah, let me take a swing at this on. So that's the first time that kind of thing has ever happened to me. Usually my books are very much they, you know, sort of start with me and and with a whole bunch of people working on it. But this kind of was collaborative, right from the get go, and as soon as I just saw, it was a very sort of bare bones pitch. But I thought, you know, taking Jane Eyre this kind of Gothic classic and turning it into ah, domestic nor thriller. I just thought like, Oh, there's there's so many fun things that you can mind in that original story to turn it into this kind of book. So that's sort of how it started was like a hint of an idea from someone else and then kind of running with it in my own way. Was this something that was kind of on the track you imagined you'd beyond anyhow, like had you been thinking about writing adult fiction at some point? No, I really hadn't at the time. And it's one of those things that's, you know, so much of this business ends up being like, just sort of fortuitous and luck and right place, right time type stuff. So it's sort of like this hit my inbox just around the same time, I kind of started running out of ideas for Y. A. I've had a great 10 year career and Children's lit and really loved it, but I was beginning to realize that I wasn't reading it anymore, and I was reading almost exclusively adult fiction. Ah, lot of thrillers. And so it was. It was almost like my brain had caught up like my reader brain knew where my heart was before my writer Brain had quite gotten there yet. So, yeah, I mean, I definitely you know, when I was first starting to write when I was younger, I thought I was gonna be a romance novelist, which now I am doing under another name. So, like I hit that But yeah, it's been such an interesting...

...thing of kind of figuring out like, Oh, okay, this is what I wanted to be doing because as soon as I sat down to write this one, it was like one of the fastest books I think I've ever written, like the process was really smooth. And I think it's just because it was time, you know, my brain was really excited for the break. I think sometimes are right ourselves no more than our real life Selves. Yeah, like they were getting in the back, saying, Okay, bring it on, bring it on, and then all we have to do is say yes. First half of this podcast we were talking to Michael Farris Smith about Nick and writing about Nick Carraway and how when the idea came to him, he said if he had asked five minutes before and somebody told him he would done it, he would have said, You're out of your mind And then five minutes later, he was doing it. So I feel like exactly for you. You wouldn't have thought about it until you did right? Exactly. It's like Stephen King has that thing where he says, like the boys in the basement. And you know, if that's what's happening, Yeah, I always say the cooks on the back burner s So I have to ask, Why Alabama? And why specifically Mountain Brook? Because, believe it or not, that's where I live. That's where I am sitting at my desk in Mountain Brook, Alabama, over right this minute, and I gasped out loud when I saw that literally on the third line of the book. Yeah, it's funny because when the idea first, like, sort of came through like I said to my agent, it was very bare bones, and it was very kind of generic. There was no setting, and when I kind of started working in the idea originally, it was just like generic Connecticut. You know, I've never even been to Connecticut, but I was like surely this is where this kind of book happens, right? It's all like suburbs on the East Coast. And then I was talking to somebody who was, you know, helping me out with the bug, who was part of the company that had first approached me. And we started talking about setting, and then he said, Well, where are you from? When I said You know, Alabama and he said, Well, do you want to set it there? And it was just like I don't know why it hadn't occurred to me that I could do that, but it was like fireworks going off in my brain like, Yes, I want to set it in Alabama because I could do so much with that. And then, as for why Mountain Brook specifically, I had a friend who years ago moved from out West, actually from Las Vegas to Birmingham so that her husband could dio medical school thing. And she was telling me how being from Vegas she thought like she was gonna move to Alabama and that everybody was going to be very sort of like salt of the earth, you know, just like good country folks. And she's like and then I showed up like everybody was like driving Beamers and they were playing tennis and pearls. I was like, Oh, you guys have all that too was like Of course we do like every you know, subset of the U. S. Has their rich people or they're kind of that subculture. And I had, you know, I have friends in Mountain Broca's Well, and...

I've always really liked that part of Birmingham. And I thought that there was something kind of fun, uh, to be explored there in like that subset of Mountain Brook, which I'm sure you're familiar with. Well, I have never played tennis and pearls. I actually don't play tennis, but I actually I actually moved here about eight years ago, so I, too, am a transplant. And I love reading about it from from that other point of view, I think it's really fascinating. Yeah, it is. And it is. It's a neat little place, you know, Like I remember when I was I was still looking up. So even though I'd been there, I still like it was Googling Mountain Brook and, like making sure I was familiar with some of the things and it was like there was an article about it. It was like Alabama's tiny kingdom. It, like it is Alabama's tiny kingdom. That's what they call a. What a funny coincidence, though, that you write a book set exactly in Patio Town. So weird. Clearly the two of you were destined to be friends, that's all. I could take a Rachel can you talk a bit about what it's like as a writer to take familiar characters or a familiar tale like you did and put your own spin on them? I'm wondering, just kind of from the writer perspective, if that was more or less difficult than writing something completely from scratch. But it sounds like this came to you really quickly. It did, and it was, you know, it's There were parts of it that were certainly more difficult. And then there were parts of it that it was easier sometimes if you did get stuck, you I would go back to my copy of Jane Eyre and be like, What, can I sort of mine from this? Um, it certainly gives you plot structure, even though I ended up getting rid of a lot of the original Jane Eyre stuff, but that was kind of the fun of it, too. Was that very early on in the process, I had decided that even though Jane Eyre is this, like, obviously iconic book, I couldn't let myself be intimidated by that. And I if I was going to do this, I needed to do it fearlessly. And that meant that if something wasn't working for me, like as a sort of connection to the Cannon, then get rid of it. Go your own way, you know, because at the end of the day, the book has to be its own thing, and it's been interesting to hear from people, sort of. I get, like, mixed reactions of, like some people who are like, Oh, Jane Eyre is my favorite book and I really enjoyed this. And then I get people who are like I actually never read Jane Eyre. But I still really like this, and I was like, Oh, yeah, no, no, you don't. There's no required reading before you start with this one because it's it's got to stand on its own, you know, and you've got to be able to come to it and know nothing about Jane Eyre and still have a really satisfying read. Otherwise, like, What's the point of doing a retailing in a lot of ways? You know, it's like if if people feel like they have to be familiar with the original, you know, that's that's not cool. It's interesting to hear you talking about giving yourself this permission, though. Thio sort of deviate from that, and it...

...sounds like a conscious decision you made and and it makes me think of, you know, I think you and I are about the same age, and I find myself at this point in my writing career growing as a person is the result of my writing more than I have in the past. Maybe just because I'm a little bit more introspective about it, or I've been doing it long enough to get to that point. Did you kind of feel like that to making these decisions and deciding I need to kind of blaze my own path here? Yeah, absolutely. And I think part of it, too, was like having come from Y A and having done that for 10 years till it with varying degrees of success. And so I was like being very brave in the manuscript itself, which then made me definitely be more brave. I think in my real life, and certainly in my career and that, you know, when I was started working on this book, things were not going so hot in my y a career. And so it felt very freeing in this book. Like even as I was like, Don't second guess that line. Just write it and go forward. I had a similar thing of, like, Don't second guess, walking away from something that's not really working for you anymore. And walking towards something that is really making you feel happy and fulfilled is a writer in a way that you kind of haven't been a while, So, yeah, that it was definitely they definitely informed each other for sure. The book in my life So it was fascinating. I was listening to a talk yesterday by one of my favorite poets. His name is David White, and I actually wrote this lying down on a piece of scrap paper on my desk, and it said, Whoever you are in your work is who you are becoming. I love that I'm listening to you talk about this and I got chills head to toe because I literally just wrote it down on this piece of paper so funny and it's so true. It's so and I've never heard it put like that before. But that's it completely that that if we're gonna be stepped forth and bravery in our work, in many ways we're stepping forth in our life, right, s So that's that's amazing. I got chills when I heard you said, That is really I'm gonna write that down as well now, Okay, I'll email it Thio. Then we'll meet at the Auburn Oil Sellers and E. I'm inviting myself along. I'm coming, Please. Eso Why is 2021 the year that Jane Eyre is retold? I think this is really fascinating because some of the literature that's coming out right now we didn't have any idea how much we needed it in what we're living through now. So you talk about how a plot originally imagined in what 18 40 can still have such relevance in our life today it is. It's so interesting because, like when I was writing it, too, I've been working on this book for so long now. I actually started it in January 2017, and I know...

I know. And it was very interesting because I realized I was getting out a lot of anger in the book, like the women in my book, because especially like this was, you know, we all know what was going on in 2017 and like the me too movement was really taking off then is well, and it felt very like cathartic to have these, like angry and complicated women. And I think if you go back and read Jane Eyre, you know Jane is such an iconic character because she does let herself be angry and she but she knows her worth In a world that's telling her she doesn't have any because she's poor and playing and you know, And But she always believes in her own self worth, to the point of, you know, walking away when something isn't working for her anymore. Um, and I think that that still resonates. I think that that's why that character has been so important so many people over the years and I also think especially this year, people maybe like, you know, can really relate with somebody who feels very who feels literally locked in their house s. Oh, I think that might be part of it, too. So, yeah, I do. I just think that there's there's still so much like when I reread the book before I started writing this, I was really struck by how modern a lot of the themes are that it is a book about money and class and power and sex. And those were all things were always going to be interested, I think, in reading about and talking about and and the the idea of women having their own agency making their own choices. This exactly. And although that might sound radical even today, the idea that women have this agency to to do what is best for them and, like you said, walk away from what isn't working. Instead of struggling so hard to make it work exactly. So, Rachel. There's a lot of author Charlotte Bronte and Jane Eyre. For example, Jane is sent to a boarding school that's similar to Bronte's boarding school, their characters based on people in her life. They both became a governess. Things like that, so I have to ask you how much Rachel Hawkins do we find in the wife of statement? It feels like very dangerous to be like lots when everybody is. I'm basically Rachel. I'm just trying to evaluate whether to actually come to coffee with you, too, Or if I should just clear this is my I'm a litmus test. Yeah, it's very funny. This one does. I mean, they're certainly it certainly has, I think, sort of almost more of my like, personal observations on like people. Um, there's a character in the book trip Ingram who is just like an amalgamation of, like, every sort of vaguely gross rich guy I've ever known. And I went toe like, private school in small town Alabama. So I know a lot of those guys eso eso There's a lot more of that. And then there's like in some cases, there's actual conversations like a friend of mine Did this whole...

...thing about reading about how, like male CEOs don't know how much milk is in their fridge, ever. But female CEOs have to run a business and still know that, and I completely took that right out of her mouth and put in someone else's mouth in the book because I thought, like, what a stunning observation, you know? And yeah, there's a lot more. I think I definitely mind those sort of observations and and character stuff more than like, luckily, more than the plot stuff. So yeah. All right. Okay. I'll come to coffee. I was really concerned. Well, thank you so much, Rachel. For joining us and thank you to Michael Farris Smith to do not forget to pick up the wife upstairs. And Nick, we highly recommend them both. And thank you to everyone for joining us today. Keep your ears out for mawr. Fascinating friends and fiction interviews coming up. And don't forget to tune in on Wednesdays at 7 p.m. Eastern for our Facebook live show. In the meantime, stay safe and well and keep reading. Thank you for tuning in. Join us every week on Facebook or YouTube, where our live show airs every Wednesday night at 7 p.m. Eastern time. And please subscribe to our podcast and follow us on Instagram. We're so glad you're here. Good night.

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