Friends & Fiction
Friends & Fiction

Episode 1 · 2 weeks ago

Friends & Fiction with Sally Hepworth & Kelly Rimmer with special appearances by Emily Giffin & Diane Chamberlain

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

What a way to kick off a shiny new year! Join the raucous good time as the Fab Four welcome two author guests plus two special guests to the first episode of 2022. Talented writers and dear friends with an amazing sense of humor and sisterhood, Sally Hepworth and Kelly Rimmer join us from Australia. Sally is the New York Times bestselling author of seven novels, including the smash hit bestseller THE MOTHER-IN-LAW. She joins us to discuss her latest novel, last year’s instant NYT bestseller THE GOOD SISTER, as well as her forthcoming book, THE YOUNGER WIFE, coming in April. Kelly Rimmer is the New York Times bestselling author of eleven novels, including THE WARSAW ORPHAN and THE THINGS WE CANNOT SAY whose books have been translated into dozens of languages and have been Top 10 bestsellers in her home country of Australia and worldwide. Kelly joins us to discuss next novel, THE GERMAN WIFE, which will be out in June. Emily Giffin even pops in to surprise Sally (her reaction is priceless!) because Sally's new book is the January pick for Emily's Instagram Book Club. Stick around for the aftershow when our friend Diane Chamberlain visits to discuss her brand-new novel THE LAST HOUSE ON THE STREET, coming to bookstores everywhere on January 11th.

Welcome to Friends and fiction, Fournew york times, bestselling authors, endless stories, novelists, mary Kayandrews, Kristin Harmel, Kristy Woodson harvey and Patti Callahan, Henry arefour long time friends with more than 70 published books between themtogether. They host friends and fiction with author interviews and fascinatinginsider talk about publishing and writing to highlight and supportindependent bookstores. They discussed the books, they've written the booksthey're reading now and the art of storytelling. If you love books andyou're curious about the writing world, you're in the right place. Hello, happy to see you there. It's aWednesday night and that means it is time for friends and fiction. It is thehappiest day of the week and tonight we are so excited to introduce you tosally Hepworth and kelly rimmer. Happy New Year and welcome to our winter 2022season. I'm Kristin Harmel, I'm Kristy Woodson Harvey, I'm patty Cali andHenry and I'm mary Kay andrews and this is Friends and fiction for new yorktimes, bestselling authors, endless stories to support indie booksellers.Our guests for the evening like I said our sally Hepworth and kelly rimmer, wecannot wait for you to meet them. And right now I'm sure they're going to bebackstage complimenting us at any moment just waiting for us right now,waiting for their waiting for them to weigh in in the chat. But enough ofthat. Okay as you know, we continue to encourage you to support, indiebookstores when and where you can And one way to do that is to visit our ownfriends and fiction bookshop dot org page. But you can find sally and kelly'sbooks and of course Diane Chamberlains and books by the four of us and ourpast guests at a discount of course at bookshop dot org. A portion of eachsale through the Friends and fiction bookshop goes to support independentbookstores and it also helps us show. I mean we gotta keep the lights onsomehow. So if you enjoy watching this is a great way to support our guestsindie bookstores and the Friends and fiction group itself all at the sametime. Mhm And speaking of supporting indie bookstores, don't forget that ourSpring box is now available for order from our friends at Oxford exchange. Ifyou don't live near a bookstore where mary Kay and I will be touring This isyour best way to make sure that your books are autographed order now andreceive my the wedding veil in March mary Kay is the home wreckers in Mayand a special friends and fiction notebook complete with sticky flags formarking all your favorite pages which they're gonna we know they'll be like alot of times you're probably gonna run out of this or the ones with bad words in my book. Do you do that? You know what I don'tbut I would like to start doing that. So that's gonna be My New Year'sResolution. You heard it here first? Okay I dog eared my pages and thenforget why I've dog eared them. Mm hmm mm hmm. I think that's funny. I don'tI'm not past writing in a book. I will definitely circle things and I thinkthat's really neat and like every romantic movie like they do that, youknow, like they write notes and then they give each other the book. Well notevery so like a lot of them. That's actually I can think of like five. Haveyou ever seen that? Okay, we'll talk about that. I've actually never seenthat in a movie. That's a different needs some clips. Okay, Okay, so we arealso a few days into our very first Friends and fiction reading challenge.Our friend and lisa Armstrong has been sharing with you on the facebook pageand here's what we're doing Each month of this year. There will be a differentreading prompt and we all brainstorm together and we all came up with thislist and we're really excited about it. And we encourage you to not onlycomplete all 12 months but also to keep track of what you've read this year.One way to do that is with our beautiful, incredible blue linenreading journal designed by us in conjunction with Oxford exchange. Ithas a gorgeous friends and fiction cover quotes from our all of us andplenty of space to record your thoughts on what you're reading this month'sprompt is a debut novel which could be a current debut or a debut novel fromone of us or from one of your favorite authors or even a classic. And we hopeyou'll consider picking up the journal and it's a great way to keep track. Andwe hope you'll join us in this fun challenge. They'll be talking about iton the page. So keep your eye out. Sounds good. Alright ladies, I cannotbelieve it's already 2022. How did this happen? I feel like the last year justwent by in a blur blur, complete blur. Right? Especially that last monthdecember just flew by. But you know, I...

...cannot think of a better pair ofauthors to ring in our 2022 winter season with then kelly rimmer and SallyHepworth. I adore these two women, both as people and as writers. And I cannotwait for all of you out there to meet them and spend a little bit of timewith them tonight too, because I know you're gonna love them as much as we do.Um we have a bit of a first tonight as um these two lovely writers who alsohappened to be good friends with each other are both joining us fromAustralia. So let's hear a little bit about them. Let's do Sally Hepworth isa new york times best selling author of seven novels, including The Good Sisterand The Mother in Law. Sally writes incisively about family relationshipsand identity and her domestic thrillers have been translated into more than 20languages. She lives in Melbourne Australia with her husband and threeChildren. And here in the States we actually share the same editor at STmartin's Press. The amazing jen Underland or gender land as some of uscall her. So it's kind of like we're publishing Sisters, you guys are bestFriends already love it or at least related. Yeah, Kelly rimmer is the newyork times best selling author of 11 novels including the Warsaw orphan andthe things we cannot say. Her books have been top 10 bestsellers in herhome country of Australia and have also appeared on bestseller lists includingthe Globe and Mail and Toronto star lists in Canada, The new york Times,Wall Street Journal and usa today lists in the U. S. Kelly's books have beentranslated into dozens of languages and can be found in bookstores all over theworld, kelly lives with her husband, her two Children and a whole menagerieof badly behaved animals in rural Australia. I love that. I loveimagining what it looks like where they live. I've never been to Australia thatI want to. Okay, let's go visit them. Do you think they'll look okay? Theywould love it if they were delightful, delightful, delightful. Has everybody surprisehouseguests? I think that would be great. Alright, upcoming novel. Theyounger wife came out in october in Australia and is set to be released onapril 5th in the United States, kelly Remmers latest is the Warsaw orphan andit came out just this past year and our own Kristin Harmel raved about it onher next novel. The german wife will be out in june so in other words we willbe hearing a lot from these women in 2022. We cannot wait to dig in withthem Sean, can you bring sally and kelly on please? Hi ladies, I have a spare room inAustralia. So if any of you want to visit, come and stay with me becausethen we'll definitely be BFF, I'll build a wing. I've got kangaroos,kangaroos in the country and I've got a tiny home, so like two of you couldprobably squeeze in there at once would be great fun. You could do likeAustralia, you know, cosmopolitan, Melbourne, I like it. All right, so ladies, we areso thrilled to have you and we're thrilled that our travel plans arealready coming together. This plan is coming to fruition by the end of theshow, we're gonna have you paying your airfare. So hang in there, it getsbetter. Um so your new american releases are still a few months away aswe said and I want to talk about both of those books tonight too. But beforewe do, we wanted to ask you both about your latest books that most of ourviewers can get their hands on now. So we could ask you ourselves or we couldbring on a friend of ours to do the honors. Sean. Is there anybody elsewaiting backstage? Somebody else? Okay. Okay. Sally's reaction is exactly whatI think my book club selection her writing is that is that in a nutshell?I just love her so much sally nice to see you Emily's are obviously going to have tocome to Australia with us. I hope you have five. Either. Either place is fine.I'm working on my flight right now as we speak. Fantastic. Okay, thank you so much for giving methis chance to say hello to them. It was such a so regulations. Yeah. This um Sally,your book is getting so buzzed. I picked it for my my book club and umwe have shared the same editor for a...

...while too. And as I did with mary Kay.Um so just a jury, but tell a little bit about the book. Sorry, now I have to pull it together.Um so the Good Sister is, I can't remember what it's about. Uh it's abouttwin sisters. I just can't believe I'm just looking at all of my my literaryheroines here. Um and uh it's about twin sisters. I'm trying to remembertheir names. No Burn and Rose who are very, it's gonna be if my publicistlike I'm going to get a Burn and Rose who are twin sisters, They'reincredibly close, not just because they're twins, but also because theyhave shared this really difficult, really tumultuous childhood togetherand now they are adults. They're living you know reasonably functioning lives.And the book kicks off when fern discovers that her twin sister wants tohave a baby and she isn't able to have that baby. And so fern who is on thespectrum but not diagnosed, decides she wants to have a baby for her sister.And that journey leads her into this hole new life that she really hadn'tbeen living and causes her to kind of make some discoveries about herchildhood and her life that we're not. In fact you know nothing is as it seemsas it were. How is that? Oh my God did I pull it together whole sentences. Well I find it so hard to talk aboutthe book. Right as it's coming out like by the end of your book tour it'll bethat was impressive. And yes I just can't wait to discuss it. Should I givethe details now on the, Yeah let's talk about your Book Club Emily and how areyou going? Yeah it's um well I know two of you know about it. Well because myselection in november was Patty Callahan's and I swear I just happenedto have this here. Like I didn't copies in every room but absolutely lovedobsessed and missed the Book club with patty that I had in um in november youcan find it on my Book Club pages just at E. G. Book Club. Very original withthose initials. Um Yes you can go check that out and then of course in decemberI did mary Kay I don't have a copy of the santa suit lying right here pattymary Kay but I loved it as you know um So and I just can't wait I cannot waitto kick off 2022. You what? Good morning what? I'm my day. Hey okay okay.Yeah. Mhm crush on Mr sally Hepworth. So cute. Do you guys find do you followhim? Oh my gosh yeah your husband's like an internet celebrity sally sallyyeah he's accidentally famous I'm amazed we're out in the streetsometimes and people come up to him and asked for an autograph and they don'tlook at me at all. So very very very charming I have to saybut you guys have a great stick going. Um But I want to just ask kelly abouther book to and tell us about that and then I'll um let you guys take backover here sorry I know I'm taking up too much time but it's just so no nonot at all I'm just thinking about how I'm so distracted thinking how glad umthat I didn't know you were coming because I was already so nervous andstar struck and now I'm like how on earth do I put words like my book isabout it's set in Warsaw during the during World War Two during the lateryears of the war. So I've got two protagonists. One is Amelia, who is ayoung polish catholic girl who has already in the first views of the warpretty much lost her whole family, but she's with an adoptive family and she'ssomewhat sheltered from what's going on just a few blocks away in the Warsawghetto. And my other protagonist is a young jewish catholic boy who istrapped in together with his family. And so we kind of follow their journeysthrough the years, the end of the war in the early Communist years. How'd I do? Did I do? And the book isso good. Thank you. Thank you guys for letting me say helloand I just want to know more monday monday january 24th at seven p.m. I'llbe live with sally from Australia. Um Kelly, you're welcome to pop on overthere too and join us.

What what your Mama's gonna be amazedfriends and friends and fiction. Thank you guys for the best. I love youeverybody everybody, everybody don't forget Emily's new book meant to bewill be out I think May 28 is that right? I'm so excited every time sheposts like edits are done and blah blah. I'm like hurry up. Well that was sogood to see her. I can't believe you just did that? Like I just I'm actuallyshaking. That was just wow, what do you want to dive in with? That was really cool to have her stopby and it's so you know I'm looking around the screen and I'm like zingingaround so many inspiring women in one place, it's so cool. So it just proveswhat we already know that friendship is so important to all of us. It's at thevery core of what we do here on Friends and fiction and we're all I've knownEmily for twenties odd years and the friendship we have with each other andwith our community has really, really we cannot say this enough sustained usover these last two years and I know kelly and sally that the two of you arefriends and your support for each other is such a beautiful and hilarious thingto watch and kelly. You blurb sally's last book, The Mother in Law sayingit's twisty and suspenseful but even more than that it's clever and nuanced.Oh that's a really good globe. I can't remember writing. That really catchesit welcomed me. I was wondering if I could borrow it. Okay and then finallyyou actually have one of your characters reading and discussingkelly's the things we cannot say In your book, the good sister, which Ithink is such a great goal that we all should somehow mentioned each other inour book. All three of you are in my 20, book. Okay, Okay, new goals and yourblurb for that book is so hilarious. You said if this book isn't a giantbestseller, I will eat my hat. Well it was a giant bestseller. So we'reassuming you didn't have to eat that hat. And I should also say that youboth live in two completely different areas of Australia, Melbourne and NewSouth Wales which is actually aren't you guys at least 10 hours apart. Right.Yeah, I think so. Yeah. We've never actually done the drive and whenever Ipicture Kelly she's just in the middle of Australia somewhere living with alot of goats around. But what do the drive then? I would get lost and I'dnever make it. So I reckon 10 hours before I give up. Okay. But like thefour of us, your dear friends despite the miles between. So I want to hearabout how you two met and how you became friends. So kelly. You want tothis off or you want to start us off kelly. Yes. Because I did started mm hmm. So sally, earbuds are dying,earbuds are dying. Your your your sound your sound is just gone now. Yeah. Sally. Yeah. Oh okay. Hang on.I'll tell the story what she does because I tell it better anyway. And this is the nature of our friendship isthat we read one another mercilessly. But it didn't start out that waybecause obviously I was aware of sally and secretly fan girling from up herein new south Wales. Um and then one day and so I've been following her onsocial media and I knew she was in the U. S. Um and one day I got this messagefrom a reader I think in north Carolina who said I was at an event tonight oryesterday whenever and sally Hepworth recommended your book and I picked itup and read it and loved it. And I was like how did that happen? Likeabsolutely. You know, because hopefully she can't you can hear this, can't you?Dammit. Well I was a little bit like star struck. I was obviously I get starstruck quite easily and I was thinking oh my goodness. So I waited a few daysand calm down a bit. And then I sent sally an email and thanked her forrecommending my book because I didn't, you know, we didn't know each other. Wedo have like there's mutual friends around the place, the Australianliterary community is not that large. Yes, you might imagine, but I didn'tyou know her directly. Um and sally being the really enthusiastic personshe is, wrote back to my email very kindly and basically forced me to beher best friend. After that I didn't...

...want to be, I was like I've got enoughfriends, I don't need another one, but here we are a couple of years later andI'm and I've grudgingly come to um to accept her in my friendship circle didI get here, It's sally, That was good, can you, can you hear me now, yep, yep, yep good, Well she's neveractually publicly admitted to being my friend before. Usually, I've just beenthis desperate loser that just refers to her as my BFF in public and she saysnot so much so, I think this counts now. And yes, indeed, it was exactly likethat and we were both so enthusiastic and then we really liked each other alot until we were doing an event together a few months ago and I triedto get kelly to admit that we were BFFs and she said, well unfortunately Idon't have an available slot because I've just become BFFs with KristinHarmel. And I said, well, fair enough, like I would drop you like a hot potatoif I was, you know, had an opportunity to be BFFs with Kristin Harmel. Andthen lo and behold a Nisa Nisa was watching our pathetic event and thenshe went, I guess, and got in touch with you Kristen and we were mid eventand then you popped on in the comments and we lost our minds. I mean, Iwouldn't, but I still don't know how we managed topull this off because since then you then invited us to come on and do thatlittle thing about friendship and we were freaking out. We were in the DMZgoing, this is just not going to work, we're going to ruin it, we're going toget canceled. And then we got invited here and we just we can't quite believeit. We're still as you can see, my favorite thing that you posted sallywas when you posted that you were coming on the show and you had like youand Kristen over here with the two girls over there. So, and then Christie Ispent about an hour trying to like edit that graphic back a real zinger, butwe're traveling at the moment and I didn't post it. I forgot it. Like itwasn't perfect and I didn't post it, but that's where we're at. That's howsad I am a whole hour. It took me ages to that's how important friendship is.Like I wanted my friendship. Yeah, I want to know what it's meant to the twoof you over the course of Republican career. Like how has it affected yourbooks? How has it affected your support? Has it you know, in publishing, notjust making us laugh are actual keep off, but like, what does it meant foryour publishing world? I want to know, six shall I go and fix whatever you say, edit edit it.It's meant everything. And I think, um you know, I always laugh when peopletalk about publishing being a cutthroat industry, maybe it is in some world,but not in the sky, you know, the world that we live in and kelly and Iparticularly have really followed the same trajectory in terms of our youknow, the books that the time we started writing the kind of periods inwhich we found success and I don't know what we would have done without eachother. And I'm going to get her to admit that too because we often findourselves kind of if we're not both on it together, like now we would havetexted each other to say we're going on the Friends and fiction, what do we doto not stuff this up? And then the other one writes back and says makesure you don't do this because this didn't go well and you know, or or youknow whatever it is, it might be an event that we're doing, it might be anaughty kind of plot thing that we're working out a contract that we'renegotiating. We might need someone to interview us for something. Um andwe've just got each other right there that understands the situation thatwants to help, that wants our success and um that understands the world thatyou know in the general kind of scheme of things people don't reallyunderstand and you know I really as as someone who does publicly Gosh, I cansay that I wouldn't be where I was if it wasn't for kelly now I want you toagree to that on air. I just would like if if did everyone catch that sallyjust submitted, I am behind all of her success because I really I feel like Idon't get enough credit for that. You are the woman behind the woman. I meana lot of people think it's christian but I think we know the truth now.Recorded has been very actually I think the thing is even at this stageof my career I don't actually know what...

I'm doing and it's not this is notsomething that you can really train for. And so it's been it has really been andI will will admit it despite the recording. I don't know how I wouldhave handled the last few years if I didn't have sally to bounce things offbecause you're just winging it all the time and it's really easy to lose yourconfidence. But you know, even like you sometimes get maybe a message from areader that's not so warm and it's really great to have someone to be ableto say, oh look I just got this or you know, even it's the ups and downs. It'snot being on that journey alone. So I grudgingly will admit I'd be completelylost without her. We don't really do sincerity though, do we sally. So thisis a bit uncomfortable. Very uncomfortable. I feel likeamericans are better at it. Yes, definitely. So yeah after we, after wefinish this we'll get on the private chat and say never say that was awful.They made us be nice to each other. I love it. Well was sincere in theAustralia. Were always enacting our will and ourguests, you know, well, sally speaking of funny people, um you know, we've alltalked about how much we loved the mother in law as did kelly, but so didcomedian, writer and actress. Amy poehler of saturday night live andparks and recreation fame. And so you were talking about in The Guardianabout your meeting with her in L. A. On your way back from new york where youwere talking about the book on Good Morning America. So obviously whirlwindtakeover of the world and in particular the United States. So can you tell usabout that? And really, what was it like meeting Amy poehler? Oh, it was soembarrassing. Like you can imagine what I was like, like it was anyway, I justlike to sort of roll on the fact that I'm Australian and maybe they'll blamethe Australian nous on me being a massive loser. But I think it'sactually more just me. But yes, I was in, I flew to new york for three days.Like, can you even imagine that now? I mean we've been locked in Australia fora couple of years. So I can't even imagine going to Sydney, but it's kindof a 27 hour flight to get to new york from here and I got there, I did thethe good morning America. And then that night I got a email from my agentsaying would you like to have breakfast with Amy Poehler in L. A. On the wayhome. So I checked my diary, I cannot take it. I'm quite busy, I'm havingbreakfast. I lost my mind and at this point I knew she was interested. We'vehad a very humiliating phone call back when I had been in Australia, but thiswas kind of the next step. And so I flew back to L. A. I, we had breakfastat the Beverly Hills hotel. I mean it was so it was funny this particularhotel where we had breakfast, the seats were all in horseshoe kind of thingsreally terrible for when you're having a group situation because we sat downand I was in the kind of the bottom of the U. And then my agent was on oneside and then there were two people from Amy's production company on theother side. And then Amy arrived and of course I had to hug it out because itwas before Covid and it was Amy. And so then I had to kind of say oh hi Amy.And then I had to stand up and like shimmy out of the horseshoe hug her andthen shimmy back in which I mean there's no way to be cool while doingthe shimmy into a horseshoe. But look in general, the, it was a greatconversation. She was every bit as lovely and funny and you know, and andbeautiful as she is, you know on tv. Um I felt like I did a reasonable job ofacting like a professional and you know, engaging in, you know, normalprofessional conversation conversation. But as we were leaving um, and thevalet's, we're getting the cars and all that kind of fabulous stuff. I waswalking alongside her and I thought, well I'm going to have to get a selfie,you know, because imagine going home and not getting a selfie like andthere's no way of asking for a selfie without giving up, you know, All ofyour power, you know, like appears which everyone knew we weren't.But I had to ask for the selfie. It was...

...a dreadful selfie. I have 50,000 chins.It's now been all over every article that I've ever done and it was worthevery minute because it was just glorious. And then shortly after thatshe bought the rights and, and then you know, away we go. So it was, it waswonderful. A career highlight for sure. Now I'm insanely insanely jealous. Okay,kelly now that I have written sally off because I'm a professional jealousywhich were not sally you're dead to me. I like you. I like you, you're such amaster of historical fiction. The things we cannot say was a hugeworldwide bestseller and the war thought Worf in was a huge hit thisyear too and I have to tell you I loaned it to my daughter in love andshe was raving about it? So that's why I haven't read it yet. Thank you. Well,she got it for free. So you might not want to think. But first I want to knowwhat draws you to writing about history. I didn't mean to do this. I was writing,I don't, I still don't think of myself as like a historical fiction writer. Ijust like writing about people in interesting situations and over time Ihave an interest in history and so, you know, I've read a little thing and thenyou know how it goes. You just get the seed of an idea and then away we go.And it's been I think over the last few years with the world in such a chaotickind of era. I'm drawn to previous chaotic eras and so out thesehistorical fiction novels just keep popping out of me. But I never, I'venever set out to do this. I really, my earlier novels were mostly contemporaryand here we are. Just some kind of fascinated by this, by this, by thisarea now. So I don't know, pop out that makes that sound sodelight necessarily, really is. I just I just sit at the computer and thenthey just write themselves. I mean that is how talented I am. Does that nothappen for you? My my books are just like my babies.This is very long painful, laborious. people know they don't pop out becauseI'm texting you going to finish this book, what do I do next? And I'm backfor another round of edits. It's so terrible. So you know that's not true looking gorgeous. Whereas mine comingmisshapen heads, that's mine too. Yeah. Yeah kelly. I've also read agreat quote from you where you said if you're gonna write fiction against setagainst real life historical events, you owe it to the people who who livedthrough those times to do so respectfully and to try to get thedetails right research matters. Would you talk about that and your researchmethods since you're stuck in new south Wales now? For I don't even know howlong Yeah, I had grand plans for this book that I'm just the german wife Iwas going to go to Germany and then to Alabama and to texas and obviouslyGermany in Alabama and texas. That's an interesting book for it would have beenamazing. Can you imagine how much fun I would have had, I would have been fullof schnitzel in Germany and then full of corn bread and it would have beenthe best best trip ever One hour from Huntsville we would that would have been seen. This wouldhave been amazing alas pandemic. So look when I get there because thisis my second book said in Alabama and I've never been there. So when I getthere I will come and visit you. Or we can meet in a coffee shop because I'mimagining you wouldn't want to tell me where you live. All my Children havefled. Alright, well this is a date then. Itake the research problem I over research. I think most, most writerswho are writing about issues or history over research because you need tounderstand context and not just individual details. And so I and I am aperson who likes very much going down rabbit holes when I'm researching. So Iwaste a lot of time. But I think it's really important to understand becauseyou are when you're touching on things that really happened, especially thingslike World War Two or you know, issues that really affect people's lives. Youcan if you don't get the details right, you can paint a picture that makespeople underestimate things that should never be underestimated. And so so forme that it's and it's something that it happens all the time, It's quitedamaging where you you you make mistakes in every single book. Um weall do, but it's you just have to do your absolute best out of everything.You just have. This has to be something...

...that you prioritize and value. So yeah.Yeah. Well how do you get it right? Um a lot of reading? And I lovephotographs and oral history. So I mean for me from a photograph you can learnso much about, you know the style of dress. What's in the background, whatare people's expressions telling? You were actually really fortunate thatcomes to writing about World War Two, that there are great big repositoriesthat you can access even from rural New South Wales online. And you can sendaway for things and there's great books and by looking at those primary sources,you can you don't get someone else's interpretation. You you actually it'sas close as you're gonna get to sitting down and talking to someone and hearingabout their experience. So, so for me, they are my two favorites is oralhistory and photographs. And so when I'm in the midst of that first draft,my office, which is my little tiny home in the bush, I plaster the walls withphotographs and you know, when I'm stuck, you know when you you're tryingto write a scene and you just kind of not sure what's coming next. And I paceand I look at the photographs and that, you know, you're trying to honor thosepeople, even if you're not writing their specific story, you want to honortheir experience and their and their suffering and their hope and all ofthose things. So I try and look at those people and think what comes next.You know what comes next. Yeah, okay. So you both have novels coming out inthe US this year sally um the younger wife is out now in Australia and we'llbe out in april in the us and kelly. Your new book, The german wife iscoming in june so first obviously you titled your books because my 2019 bookwas called The Winemaker's Wife. And this was all just a ploy so that we'dhave something in common. I recognize that I'm going to ask you about that ina minute now. I just need you know, I'd love to ask you before Iget into the weird, desperate psychology of what makes a person dosomething so strange. So can you tell us a little bit about the younger wife?Yeah, I'm trying to remember what that one is about now. No. Yes. So theyounger wife is about apart from being a desperate attempt to make friends.It's also about a uh a family and a family. No, no, we can't hear you. We can hearyou know what now. Yeah, okay, good. Forget them not using them anymore. Sothe younger wife is like all of my books about family dysfunctionalitywhich is my favorite thing to write about and in this book because there'sso much fodder, right? Especially this time of year when people have hadchristmas and you know, everyone's pretending they love each other butreally, you know, there's stuff going on beyond the surface, Everything'sfalling apart over the turkey. But the the younger wife is about the Astonfamily. They are an adult family, a mother father and two adult daughtersand the patriarch of the family as it were kicks off the story when hedecides to marry a woman younger than his adult daughters and he does thiswhile his wife and the mother of those daughters is still alive, but in anursing home with dementia. And this book then kind of, it starts with awedding where someone gets murdered. Um, and then we kind of go backwards intime to see what led up to the murder, who was murdered and who did it. Andit's told through the perspective of the two daughters and the soon to beyounger wife and there's lots of twists and turns and, and yes anddysfunctionality that some of us might recognize from our own families. Sogood. I um, I read that book in a day and was up until like two in themorning finishing it. I loved it so much. It was so amazing to get to readit kelly. Can you tell us a little bit about the german wife, which I have notread yet, which I'm so mad at you about, but no, finish it, hurry up and finishit. It's coming. It's coming well in 2000 and 19 I live near this placecalled Parks where there's this radio telescope that was instrumental inbringing back the images from the moon landing and there was an anniversarycelebration, a big festival and I took my Children and I wasn't looking for abook idea. Um, but at the festival, there were all of these, you know,exhibits and one of the exhibits had this one little plaque that I can stillpicture that said, you know, something about the american space program andthe rocket program out of Huntsville Alabama. And uh the german scientistswho worked there, scientists plural.

And I thought to myself, how on earthdid that happen? You know, 1950 World War Two wasn't long finished. How didthe scientists from Germany who were instrumental in developing the V two's,which did a lot of damage to London and antwerp and other places? How did theyend up in America? So I was driving, we're driving home quite late thatnight and you know, the, the cell service in rural Australia is not great,but I'm on my phone trying to google trying to figure out, you know, I'venever heard of the, of the operation paperclip for the rocket program inHuntsville. And I'm reading all of these really positive articles abouthow this influx of german scientists, some nazi scientists from Germany cameto America. And it was all happy days. And now Huntsville is, you know, 50years later, this glorious multicultural paradise. Um, and Ithought, I imagine it wasn't quite that simple. Um, and then I startedresearching and this story came into my head about these two women, One who hadbeen through the great depression in texas and her husband's working at FortBliss. And then he comes over to Huntsville with the rocket program. Buther family has been impacted quite seriously by by the What happened withthe Nazis in Germany. And then we've got this Nazi scientists and his wifewho were in Germany through the rise of the Nazis and then through the war andnow they're in America as well. Which surely was at least a little hostiletowards them. And so the story is about those two women and how they're meetingchanges both of their lives. And I haven't actually done any talking aboutthis book yet. So I'm very sorry if that took 15 or 20 minutes to explain and Kelly. I live in Alabama. I went tocollege in Alabama. And I have never had never until he wrote that book, hadever heard about that. No way! No way! I knew nothing about historical fiction.Because you know, I always know when I'm onto an idea that might be good towrite about when I email my agent the proposal. And she's in she's inManhattan when she writes back and says, oh I didn't know about this. You know,american history. I always think, oh well if there's americans who don'tknow about it as well. Then this might be really interesting to write about.So that's good. I'll send you a copy. Okay. I have a quick question for sallyand it's it's uh it's it resonates with me because I read a great quote fromyou about author self doubt. Which is such a part of my writing life, yousaid self doubt is part of every author's life at best. Self doubt canpush you to produce your best most authentic work. At worst, it can stopyou from producing anything at all. Making friends with self doubt is animportant part of becoming an author. Would you tell us a little bit aboutyour journey with self doubt and do not implicate kelly in this? I mean, butit's true isn't it, that I've yet to meet a writer at least a female writerwho does not talk about the doubt that they experience and including writerswho are very well published and very successful. In fact, may beparticularly those people. And I have had I mean, myself doubt has beenconsistent from first to current book books, but I think that I really had aparticular attack of self doubt after my book Between the Mother in Law andThe Good Sister. There was another book that didn't get published in there. Ispent a year writing a book and it was funny time because I had had greatsuccess with The Mother in Law that was option to Amy poehler and I've been onGood Morning America and you know, things I was getting lots ofcongratulations on my success as it were. And then I wrote this other bookand that book was turned down you know not just in one fell you know thing butit just became clear that it wasn't right and it wasn't working. And sothat was I mean isn't that what we all have nightmares about? And I've spentyeah I've spent so long on it. And so after that I really had to kind offigure out how am I going to keep doing this with the fact that there's noguarantee that anything you know that this won't happen again or thatanything I ever write again will be any good. Um And so I did a couple ofthings but the thing that I've continued to do since then has beenright in 350 word bursts which have since been diagnosed with A. D. H. D.Which is another thing. But if you're a writer with a PhD writing in 350 wordfirst is exactly in our wheelhouse for...

...our short Your concentration span.Anyone can write 350 words and there was something about kind of and I wouldcross it off. I did six a day and I crossed each one off it allowed me toconcentrate be it forced me to concentrate on just producing the wordsas opposed to really caring if they were any good or not. And that removedthat burden of you know am I ever going to get published again. Um And ithelped me get the words done. So um that's what I still turn to to kind ofoutrun the self doubt because I kind of think at the end of each day, if I'vewritten 2000 words it's been a successful day and if it's a load ofcrap which you know, let's face it, it's probably going to be one point oranother and until I edited at least it definitely is. Um it allows me to keepyou know, making friends with the doubt and just still continuing to producethe work because it's when your doubt stops you from doing it, that it's areally a problem I think when it becomes paralyzing it's definitely aproblem. And that kind of the same way as us into, you know, we always like toask about writing tips. So you've given us your sally sally sorry, go ahead Kristen No, I wasjust gonna say there's it's really interesting, I think it was ElizabethGilbert, but she wrote about fear and she said um and fear and writing andcreative work and she said you know, you can't get rid of it. So shecompared it to taking a car trip and said you're allowed to come, you knowand on the journey you're just not allowed to drive and it sounds likeyou're saying the same thing like you befriended you say I see you you loathethem self doubt, you know, you're you're gonna be here but you don't getto drive the car and I just love that. Exactly. And it also because you don'twant to be publicly humiliated when people read your book you can then takethat self doubt back and get it to be really critical as you edit. So that'syou know that's the friendship. I love that. How about you kelly? Have you hadto struggle to overcome self doubt and your writing at all? Yeah. But you knowI think I think that's part of the magic of sally actually she's soresilient and she's vulnerable in being open about that because before I knewher I assumed you know online we all have it all together don't we? Likeeverything is just easy online. If you look at your instagram feed generallynot putting out there that there are days when you look at the pay you canthink oh my goodness, I've scammed everyone. How on earth did I get tothis point? I don't know what I'm doing. But when you've got friends like sally,I mean I can I can say that to sally and she'll say yes I know I'm the same.How did we get here? You know we all feel like that but you do it anyway andfor me I write the first draft for me it is just for me no one's going to seeit. I know I'm a good editor I still think I'm quite a poor writer but I doit anyway because I know once I've got something on the page, I can massage itand work with it. I've got a great team as we all do. And so, you know, I knowI'll get critical feedback from my editor and my agent and that's going tomake the book good. So, you know, I've got to look forward to that as part ofthe process. So, for me, the secret really has been, I think Jody paku said,you can't edit a blank page and that is my whole career mantra. Just getsomething down for goodness sakes. Um and go from there. So is your writing tip to be friendswith me because if it is, I just hope you four ladies are listening to that.We've taken it to heart. We've taken it to heart. Exactly Mr sally and kelly.If you would not mind sticking around for a few more minutes, we have oneadditional question for you. But first a few reminders from us. So just aquick reminder of our Writer's Block podcasts. I know we talked about it,but it is amazing. So, the show is always a podcast every week, but alsoon Fridays. Every single friday, we have a Writer's Block podcast this pastweek Ron was joined by our very own meg walker. When we were in Beaufort northCarolina and it is so much fun to listen to y'all, there are part of ourcommunity is on there meg talks about how we got started and next week Ron istalking to 30 Nagar, I'm so scared I said that wrong and I've met her andshe's amazing and it's for the book honor. And that book was just chosen asReese's Book Club pick. So we are thrilled that she will be on thepodcast next week and don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcast.And also, I mean hell um disappointed you would be to miss out on these. Andone of our dearest friends from the...

...show Julia kelly her book that justcame out yesterday that we all have a huge thumbs up the last stance of thedebutante. We will have her on soon too. So don't forget to subscribe whereveryou get your podcasts and while you're hitting all those subscription buttons,don't forget to subscribe to our newsletter and our Youtube channel sothat you never miss a thing. I mean if you weren't getting our newsletter, youwouldn't know that. Sally's perfect day includes reading in bed during athunderstorm With alcohol. Always pandemic vice was watching 30 rockreruns, you would be crushed not to know these things. So make sure thatyou subscribe and you can find back episodes on loco plus a new streamingplatform which also includes loads of other brand new content from otherindependent creators and if you're not hanging out with this yet in thefriends and fiction official book club you're missing out The group which isseparate from us and is run by our friends, Lisa Lisa Harrison and BrendaGartner is now more than 10,000 strong joined them on January 24 when ourfriend wade rouse who writes this violence shipment will be joining themfor an in depth chat about The Secret of Snow and make sure to join us forour next episode of Friends and Fiction. Next Wednesday right here at seven p.m.Where we will welcome Jeffery Deaver. Then on january 19th will host Gilliancancer, the author of Beautiful Little Fools and jenny judson and Danielle myfood. The authors of the last season. If you're ever wondering about ourschedule, it's always on our friends and fiction website and on the heterographic on our facebook page. Alright, sally and kelly, you're up one moretime. One question we always like to ask before our guests leave is whatwere the values around reading and writing when you were growing up? Sothe values around reading and writing in your childhood homes kelly. Do youwant to start? Yes, I didn't grow up in a big book house I'll be honest, but Idiscovered the power of sinking into a book and disappearing into anotherworld quite young and was that classic nerdy bookworm child who was alwaysfacing a book and once I kind of figured out that I could write as well.um it was just so weird writing and reading kids you know what I mean? Andmy family just left a lot of space for me to be as gloriously weird as I wasand it just it just it wasn't that they I don't think they ever got it but thatwas so respectful of it because I was passionate about it. That's awesome,how about you sally I did have, I did grow up in a big bookhousehold, my mom was a teacher and my dad was also a reader and and one thingthat I think about a lot that I have taken from my childhood into my nowfamily of choice and with my Children is that I remember when I was growingup and you know we didn't always have a lot of money, we always had everythingwe needed but not necessarily a lot more and there were times when we knewnever to ask mom for things when we were out you know treats or anythinglike that but if we ever asked for a book in a bookstore we always got itand we knew that you could ask for a book even when times were tough and andmom would would buy it even though you could get it at the library and we werebig library goers but as an adult she has told us that that was aboutinstilling the value of books in us and that that was something that we wereprepared to spend money on even when money was tight and and you know mykids now know that if they are out with us or with Graham as well then they'realways going to come home with books and I always tell that to people whowant to make their Children love reading because it definitely workedfor me. I love that. What a great piece of advice. Well ladies, this was such apleasure to have you tonight. We have so many questions and we loved it somuch. Um you know, we, we we had such a great conversation that we didn't getto ask viewer questions like we often do. So if you have a chance there are alot of questions um in the comments on the facebook feed. If you have a chanceto go back and answer some of them, we had hundreds of people watching tonighthundreds of questions. Um it was just such a pleasure. Honestly thank you. Well we can't waitto come visit you in Australia and we're so excited. We're planning the trip as soon as weend the shoot and if you would like to come here, yes, we're on our way tothrow another shrimp on the barbie will be there soon. Exactly. This is gonnawork out, just give me your home...

...address is in the chat now. It's awful. Now don't make it weird sally way sally and kelly, Thank you so much.We are so excited for you releases and we'll see you again soon. I can't believe you've got Diana next.Yes. Say hi to Diane. Look around if you want. Don't figure out everyone.Welcome to see Diane. You can. All right, well everybody out there I amthere. So your excuses are you can ask for her address to and make it evenweirder. So make sure everyone out there to stay for our aftershow wherewe will welcome Diane chamberlain. And don't forget that you can find all ofour back episodes on Youtube. We are live there every week. Just like we areon facebook and if you subscribe you won't miss a thing. Plus you'll haveaccess to special short place. Be sure to come back next week. Same time. Sameplace as we Welcome Jeffery Deaver. Goodnight, everybody. Goodnighteveryone. Yeah. All right. Well, we've scared sally off.That kelly is still with I mean best friends. Well, it'sofficial Now. He's going to kick herself. He's glorious. Obviously wonthe competition kelly. This was our final test. And you passed. I stayed here. I'd be able to see Diane.That's the only reason I stayed at the computer because I'm a mega mega fan ofhers and have been obsessed with her for such a long time. She worked one ofmy books once and I cried when I got the email. She has had a wonderfulperson. She's she's amazing. She's amazing. Hopefully she'll be popping onin just a minute. She hasn't signed on yet. I assume that sally probablyscared her away. Do you think it was everything? Yeah. Diane was like thosewomen are terrifying. I can't Alright. Oh, welcome. Oh, popped out at exactlythe right. Oh my gosh. Thank God you're here. All right. That was a fabulousour Oh, thank you so much. Didn't we have so much fun. Art kelly kelly. Justgreat, fantastic. Well everybody out there, welcome back for our first aftershow of the year. Um and kelly I think is going to stick around and hang outwith us for a few minutes. Is that right kelly? I am, yeah, you can justkick me off when I get to be too much. I just, I just wanted to say hi toDiane. Hello Diane. How are you? Well you know, I assume she's comingback but you know, while we're waiting for her, maybe we can talk a little bitabout her. We thought we would start the year off with a bang by bringing inour friend Diane chamberlain whose latest novel, The last house on thestreet is coming out in just six days mary. Kay, do you want to tell us alittle bit about her? I do because she's such a special dear friend. Dianeis the New York Times. USA Today and Sunday Times, best selling author ofnearly 30 novels, including last year's Big Lies in a small town. The stolen marriage in the Secret lifeof Sissy Wilkes. She lives in north Carolina with her significant otherpartner john Pagliuca and there's Shetland sheepdog cole. And I will say that Diane and I werepart of an amazing writers group while I lived in Raleigh. And I can tell youthat Diane as a former hospital social worker, she's just an invaluable aid toany writer struggling with character motivation. Sean can we get Diane backon? Yeah. Oh, I can't believe I went off. HiDiane. Hi. I thought you were leaving. I hung up. I did the wrong thing Andthen I saw kelly up here making friends with you and I just quickly scrambled.Glad you're both here. I'm not gonna say anything. I'm just going to sithere and mute. You know what's been cracking me up sally is your your onestar reviews. I mean it takes courage.

We should start a thing where we allread our one star reviews. That would be fun. Who should I lovethat idea? My soul could not take it. I can't look at my reviews. I am not asresilient as sally. I would just be in a heap. But their so funny. You justread the funny ones. Yes, chris Christie. You had a good oneabout how the book didn't clean the person's carpet or something. Didn'tYeah. I did not did not adhere to their rug the way that they was like a rugpad review get it off of your book. Alright enough of the silliness.Although we love silliness. Diane. I I just wish I could kiss the screen is sogood to see you. Yeah. You too Cathy Miss you. I know, I miss you too. Imean mary Kay. Yeah, whatever. Tell us a little bit about the last house onthe street which comes out next week and I really I'm so interested in howyour interest in the civil rights movement, Which is a big part of thisbook was sparked when you were only 14 and it kind of carries back to lastyear's book too, doesn't it? What was last year's book? I don't know that wasthat was a little bit of a different era. I feel like when Sally was saying,you know, she doesn't know how to talk about the new book and it's really it'shard in the beginning, isn't it? It's a dual timeline book. I can tell you that.Yes, it is a dual timeline book. I think what you're referring to is umwhen I was 14, I awakened to the news as I did every morning and they weretalking about three young civil rights workers in Alabama or Mississippi whohad been murdered brutally murdered and they were to um white guys and a blackguy and they were students, they were college students and that struck mebecause A I was a student, and b I was in schools that were half black. And soit opened my eyes to um civil rights work and to the fact that a studentcould do something that a student had some power. And so the last house onthe street, it is that dual timeline, And it's about a young woman in 1965,she's 20, and she joins the effort, she's a north Carolinian, and she joinsthe effort of a group of students who try to um register black voters in thesouth, and all of the other workers are from the north. So she has kind of thisdouble whammy to to deal with, she has to win over not only the black voters,but also these northern students, nobody really trusts her trusts hermotivation and of course she has a very private motivation for why she's doingthis. And then the Second story, the second timeline is 2010, and it's ayoung woman named Kayla, who is about to move into a beautiful new home thatshe and her husband built and her husband has just died, and so she'smoving in with her little girl and she's very depressed and very sad aboutmoving into this house and the house is on the same street that our firstcharacters house was on, you know, very old house and then this brand newsparkling house, and it's it's not clear to the reader. I do not think howthese stories tied together. Um and I love doing that. It's really fun for meas a writer to write, to kind of completely different storylines andthen see the twists and turns that bring those two stories together. Sothat's that's it in a nutshell. But the nutshell is pretty big, I cannot waitto this, it's so good. I got to read an early copy, I was so lucky and I havebeen a long time Diane Chamberlain fan, and up until this book, necessary Lieswas my favorite, and I was just telling everyone, and then now this one is justyour best and your brilliant can't talk...

...anymore. But I just loved it so much.Sorry, I wasn't gonna say anything, it means a lot coming from you. It reallydoes. So good. You can say whatever you want except for asking for addresses orphone numbers that was crossing the line. Diana was on the last house onthe street. I'm just gonna tell you, you can have my address and my phonenumber sally, let's talk offline kelly. I really loved the way you describedresearching, especially going down the rabbit hole, you know, just discoveringlittle tidbits that feed your creativity. Um Of course that's exactlywhat I do as well. And it's just uh it changes your story, doesn't it? You'vegot an idea that you're going to go in one direction and then a little bit ofresearch comes along and suddenly you're in a whole different place andit's usually a better place. Yeah, so, well put um well, publishers weeklygave your new book a starred review saying Chamberlain delivers the goodswith this affecting and spellbinding account of communities buried secrets.The dual narratives emerged beautifully before an explosive conclusion. Thiswill keep readers enthralled. So, I have a book, the wedding veil comingout in March, that also tackles two time periods, one in the past and onein the present, sort of, similar to your book, not a similar book, butsimilar timeline situation. So, can you talk a bit about the challenges ofwriting a dual timeline book like this one and why the Payoff can be so rich.Um one of the hardest things is keeping the voices separate and what I do is Ipretty much know the story, although it changes constantly, I know where I'mgoing and I will write one entire storyline first and then write thewhole second storyline and then I'm often terrified to see how they fittogether because it's all these different chapters and I know I want toalternate chapters most of the time and how are they going to fit together? Andusually it's kind of a little miracle. Usually they do fit together prettywell. Um occasionally I have to juggle some things, but the other the good one of the best reasons for doing itthat way for me is not losing that voice because when you're writing it'sso easy to have the other characters start sounding like the first charactervice versa. So I find it really helpful to kind of stick with one timeline andone character and then push them together and see what happens. It'sexciting actually had this conversation like 18 months ago. How did you do itChristy? Not that way. And that would have been really smart and actually I,I had forgotten about this and and it sort of makes my stomach hurt to thinkabout it now, but I wrote the whole book and then realized that the way Ihad alternated the chapters I really didn't like. So I separated the wholehistorical part from the whole contemporary part and then redid it andit really, it was, this is bad now Diane, are you still story boarding? UmI did not storyboard on this book and I don't think I story boarded on Big Liesin a small town either. I think I'm changing without your input. I know youknow what the storyline, you know, we, I'll tell you guys, we used to do thesegreat writers retreats twice a year, um to a to a retreat, Fabulous, theWeymouth um in north Carolina in um Southern Pines and a group of us wouldgo and um I would every year I would try to storyboard and I couldn't do it,but Diane was used to be a whiz at it. Yeah, I loved doing it. But somethinghas changed. I don't I had to know exactly where my story was going andthese days I don't seem to know that actually right now, I wish that Ididn't know where the Next one is gonna never know. Yeah, it's well, it'ssurprising and Also it's, you know, this is my 28th book, the one that justcame out and it's um you change your process changes you do you grow forbetter or worse? So yeah, it's a real different process than I used to haveand it's terrifying. Who was talking about being terrified, you know, we'reall terrified, but I'm particularly terrified. Yeah. Whenever you'restarting a new book and until it's done...

...and sometimes even after it's donethere is this sheer terror of can I do this again? Did I even do it right this time? Right.Exactly. Oh no, this one is the one that's going to ruin my career, youknow, Diane? This one didn't ruin your career. In fact, in fact, um Last Houseon the street is this week's People magazine. Yeah. Week Sean, do we havethat graphic where Sean did Sean check out hope? Not. So are we were talkingabout? It's the book of the Week, the last thing I have to say. That's reallypretty. Thank you? Thank you very I'm very excited about that. That's greatkelly, Did you did you have a quick question you want to? Yes. Diane Icould ask you 1000 questions, but they won't let me because we ran out of timeand I've only got one. So I wanted to talk to you about coal. Now. I lovefollowing you on social media because I'm a crazy dog lady. And I love yourdog. He's so beautiful. But I've noticed that it seems like writers anddogs, you know, there's that stereotype about cats and writers, but I feel likeus dog writers are the best ones. And tell us about your life with cole. Andhe's he's obviously important part of your family. He is he's a very oddlittle dog. He's a Shetland sheepdog and he is very bonded to john andmyself, But he is not at all interested in anybody else and he's afraid ofeverybody else. He's almost 10. I took him to um all kinds of dog classes,including Fearful Fido class. And the first night he hid under my chair andthe last night he hid under my chair. We have a guitar circle, like a booktitle. Our guitar circle meets here. Um and it's about 16 people and we allsurrounding the circle and he just parks himself right under my chair andwatches everybody from there. And they all try, you know, they try with treats,they try all different ways and he's just not having it. But he is theeasiest dog I've ever owned. I mean he's so obedient and good. He's just agood boy. Thanks for asking about him. That was beautiful. Well what a nightladies! This was so much fun and Diane were so excited about your book comingout in 60. Thanks for having me back. Oh, we're thrilled and Diane, I'm soglad I got to love you. I was done the last time. It was the only episode Imissed last year was, wow, I remember, I'm happy we're finally getting to seeeach other. So good to see you guys and to get to talk with kelly and sallyawesome. I want to know where these writing retreats are happening and ifkelly and I are invited to come to the next one. I was actually just thinking that would be, we should all get awayman. I just did an event there and, and it was so fun and I was thinking thatit was like we need to do this and there are ghosts or come to Australia. Excellent. Would be even funner. Canyou imagine traveling? I know next to mary Kay on the plane,it'll be a hoot. There are a lot of chardonnay. I'll get the boost and I'llfind the venue In my country. Just come to me with vineyards everywhere. That'strue actually that we can at least do it virtually.We're gonna bring out when we take you seriously when you're going to regret all of this. Well, thank you all so much for joiningus. I hope everyone out there will buy Julia Kelly is the last dance of thedebutante this week. Diane's the last house on the street next week. And ofcourse Sally's new book and Kelly's new book later this year. And in themeantime catch up on the good sister in the Warsaw work and they're absolutelyamazing ladies. I cannot think of a better way to have started off 2022 wasso great. Thank you for tuning in. You can joinus every week on Facebook or YouTube where our live show airs on Wednesdaynights at seven PM eastern time. Also subscribe to our podcast and follow uson instagram. We're so glad you're here. Mm hmm.

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