Friends & Fiction
Friends & Fiction

Episode · 1 year ago

S1E6: Mary Kay and Kristin with Tana French

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Mary Kay Andrews and Kristin Harmel interview Ireland-based award-winning thriller writer Tana French about her latest, THE SEARCHER, and her long career writing spine-tingling page-turners. https://www.tanafrench.com/

Welcome to Friends and fiction, five best selling authors and the stories novelist Mary Kay Andrews, Kristen Harmel, Christie Woodson, Harvey, Patty Callahan Henry and Mary Alice Munro are five longtime friends with more than 80 published books to their credit. In 2020 they created friends and fiction to provide author interviews and fascinating insider talk about publishing and writing and to highlight independent bookstores. These friends discuss the books they've written, the books they're reading now and the art of storytelling. If you love books and you're curious about the writing world, you're in the right place. Okay, France and Fiction is sponsored by Mama Geraldine's Bodacious Foods, the company that makes Mama Geraldine's Cheese Straws, which come in six varieties and are the best selling cheese straws in the United States. Founded by former radio executive Cathy Cunningham and named for her mother, they have melt in your mouth cookies to delicious treats and a woman owned empire. Now that is something that friends and fiction can really get behind. Try them. You'll be so glad you did get 20% off on your online order at Mama Geraldine's dot com with the code Fab five Snack on y'all. We'd also like to thank our other sponsor, Page One books who offer a book subscription package that we love the hand select books for you each month based on your preferences in their book knowledge. And because the reeds are being chosen by actual independent booksellers, you know you're more than just an algorithm. The subscription package, which can run 36 or 12 months, is a perfect gift for a book lover, even if that book lover is you. Page one books the personal touch of an indie bookstore with the delight and surprise of an online subscription service curated just for you. First time subscribers get 10% off with the code Fab five at page one books dot com, and you're listening to the podcast arm of our weekly Wednesday Night Friends and Fiction Facebook program. But today's podcast is an all new, original interview with an author. We've been eager to chat with international best selling novelist Tana French. She had to tell us how to say it. Who's joining us today from her home in Dublin, Ireland. I'm so jealous. Tana is the Edgar winning New York Times best selling author of the popular Dublin murder squad novels and a few stand alone's, including The Searcher, which came out late last year and has been hailed as its own kind of masterpiece...

...by The Washington Post and nuanced and compelling by The New Yorker, People magazine says of the searcher, French avoids the fireworks of conventional crime fiction, instead taking a classic setup, the loan outsider revealing the dark side of a small town and then viewing it with simmering menace. There's also an unexpectedly moving friendship and storytelling so atmospheric you can practically smell the peat bogs. And that is true. Um, and also Glamour magazine raised. French's writing style is so unhurried and pleasurable, and every page smells and sounds like Ireland. Having read the book myself, I can tell you it's all completely true. Welcome, Tana. Thank you guys so much for having me on. It's great to be here. It's a it's a thrill for us. For those of you listening. We've been trying to figure out the logistics of having Donna, who is in Dublin on with us, so we really appreciate the hopes she's gone through. Tada. Let's dive right in because there's so much to talk about. I am fascinated by your protagonist, Cal Hooper. He's a retired Chicago cop, and the way you slowly peel away the layers of his backstory was, I think masterful. We learned from the beginning that he's moved to this tiny village in Western Ireland. Can you pronounce the name of the village article? T. I made it up. It's not real, I promise. I feel like I have to say that just in case anybody out there is going Okay, that sounds like a pretty dark place to be, and I don't want to. I don't want to visit Ireland anymore. I thought I wanted to, but I don't know. It's not real. I made it up, okay. We learned from the beginning that he's moved to this tiny village called Aberdeen. Wait till you try Welsh name Way. He's disillusioned with policing. Did you know all those things about him when you started writing the searcher? The only thing I knew I definitely wanted to do was I wanted to make him somebody who did not want to be a cop or detective anymore, and partly it was because I've been reading a lot of Westerns and I kind of had been thinking about how some of the tropes from the Westerns would fit in the west of Ireland, because there are a lot of parallels with the landscape. So I thought, you know what about a Western in our west? And one of the tropes of the Western that I like is you know, the retired old gun slinger who gets dragged out of his retirement for this one last mission, whether he wants to or not. So I've been thinking about that, and I've been thinking a lot about the ambiguity that goes with being a police officer and everywhere I think. But probably right now, particularly in the U. S. And I think one of the tendencies of the detective novel is when you're writing from the detectives point of view, you're writing from the point of view of authority, and you're implying that that is the most valid viewpoint is the viewpoint of the police officer, and I...

...was interested in somebody who no longer saw that as a valid viewpoint, a narrator who wanted to step as far away from that as possible and who had deliberately stripped off all the trappings of being a detective, and he found himself having to be a detective with only the mentality that he had tried to leave behind and without any of the technology or the support that he would have had, um, if he were still on the job back in Chicago. Yeah, he doesn't have the system. He can't like, run a suspect to the system. He can't dump the missing person's phone and find out what he's been at. He doesn't even have a gun. He's got no friends. He's got nothing left of being a detective, which is what he wanted. Accept the fact that whether he likes it or not, there are ways. His mind is still a detective's mind, and that's what ends up coming in useful against his will. That's so cool. That idea that at his core, even stripped of all of those things, he's still who he is, even if he's trying to escape it. That's that's fascinating. So in the book, there's a bond that forms eventually between Cal and the 13 year old named Trey, who needs Cal's help? Can you talk a little bit about that powerful connection that forms and how that relationship shapes both of them through the course of the book. Well, to a large extent, it seems like there's a fairly straightforward reason, at least from trays perspective for this particular relationship. Because Trey is looking for somebody trades big brother Brendan, who's 19, has been missing for six months, and the police don't care. The village doesn't care. The general attitude is that Brendan was trouble. It's good that he's gone. He probably ran off. But Trey really needs someone to find out what happens. And Cal, who is both an outsider who isn't going to see Brendan, is just this local troublemaker and who is also a detective. Cal seems like the perfect person. So that's why trade goes after Cal. And Cal basically starts out only talking to trade because he just wants peace and quiet. And the only way he's going to get peace and quiet back is to get rid of this kid who won't go without Brendan being tracked down. Yeah, but at a deeper level, they both are. There's still something there. Look, there's something each of them is looking for, that they end up finding in the other. Trey's father has been gone for a couple of years and was never much of a father, and his so trade is kind of looking for someone to be a model for how to be a grown up in this world. But Trey's mother isn't much of a grown up, either, and Cal has a daughter, a grown up daughter who he somehow become distant from, and he's not sure how. And he feels like this is the result of some vast moral flaw within him. But he's never quite managed to pinpoint. What is it about himself that that let this relationship disintegrate? And so not that he would admit it. He's looking for a chance to re do the father thing and do it slightly better. And, yeah, there are ways in which they both need something from the other one and find it by accident, which is. Another Western thing is, you think you're going on one...

...journey, but the people who you run into along the way end up being part of that journey. I love that idea, and I love that. That's sort of another thing drawn from westerns. Um, you know, I think it's also something that reflects real life so well. And I think that's one of the things that really makes these characters jump off the page. I mean, it's such a It's such a realistic idea that we find that things were not looking for sort of where we least expect, and they're really the things we need. Yeah, and the accidental people along the journey turned out to be the journey you're going on, not the actual goal you thought you had. You know, I don't want to drop a spoiler here. There's some ambiguity about Trey's identity in the Searcher, and once that's revealed, does it change in your mind the nature of cows relationship with the kid, as he calls them? Yeah, the kid is how Cal always thinks of trade. Basically, what's weird is that I don't think it changes the relationship anywhere near as much as Cow is initially afraid it will. And there's a kind of dichotomy between the relationship as seen by people outside it and the relationship from within, because what color is afraid of is that this new realization will shift what everyone, how everyone else perceives their relationship. But in actual fact, it doesn't change the relationship between them at all in any way. And he has to adjust to how much a relationship is defined by the people having it and how much to allow it to be defined from outside and how, especially in a small village where everybody's perceptions of you are very important, they define how you fit in. What do you do about these perceptions? How do you position yourself and find your place within this village in a way that is right for you and for the relationships you've been building up? How do you avoid ending up in a position that isn't true to who you are and what you're doing right? But there are all these landmines. These potential landmines and some of those landmines really don't become evident until we find out more about the kids identity. Yeah, I think that's most obvious with a big kind of revelation like this. But I think that's probably always a feature of relationships that you will come across the stumbling blocks on this point where it suddenly doesn't seem to be necessarily what it always was. And for Cal, that's probably always been a moment where he tries to make himself be and make the relationship be. What fits into his sense of himself, his sense of himself as this good, steady man who will look after people and here he doesn't really have a good way to do that. And that, to me, was one of the big things about the book is You've got this guy who's trying really hard to be a good guy and who has real trouble with the idea that there are situations where there may...

...not be a right thing to do. There may only be a less wrong thing, and he's confronted with these. And what do you do then? How do you keep your sense of yourself as a good person doing good things when there may not be one clear cut right thing to do? Sorry, it's another of the things I loved about Westerns. Actually, that's another element taken from the Western, where, like I've been thinking a lot about right and wrong and how you tease them out from each other, which I think a lot of us are these last few years, and what I loved about Westerns is they resist the temptation to go black and white about it because it is a temptation. It's very easy to go. Okay, This person like to really vile tweet. So they're a bad person. End of story, no further thought necessary. Or, you know this person. He regularly does terrible things to other people. But you know, he says he's religious, so he must be a good person. End of story, and it's so easy to try and make it that clear. And westerns don't they refuse to do that? They're constantly engaging with situations where there is no right solution, no right option and with the fact that good people sometimes do bad things. Bad people sometimes do good things, and everyone finds out really, really hard to process. And they don't try to gloss over this ambiguity. They don't try to, you know, explain it away or hand waited or tie it up neatly. They just lay it out and let us deal with that. And that was one of the things that I really liked and I wanted to bring out in this book, I think I think one of the themes about Westerns is pragmatism. Sometimes you can only do what you can do. Tana. I started my fiction career as a mystery writer, so I've always been fascinated. I have been fascinated to learn that you approach your fiction in a very, um, mystery like Wait, no, I mean, you, you ignore or outright break most of the tropes of the genre, and I just wonder if that's deliberate on your part or if it if you just approach every story and get at the heart of the story whichever way you can. Oh, well, okay, that's really interesting. And I'm a ramble on for a minute. So shut me up. If I ramble on too long, I love tropes. First thing, right? I love mysteries tropes, but I think all genre tropes are more interesting when they're not taken as as fixed boundaries. They're taking us cool starting points. So it's not okay. I have to stick to this. It's Oh, this is fun. Now what could I do with it? How could I use it differently? How could I bounce off it and let it send me off somewhere new rather than just following the lines that it's already laid down? Where else could it go? So I love that about every John and I love writers to do it, so that's what I try to do. But in terms of what you said about every book kind of defining its own terms, yes, totally. And for me, it's the main character who defines the terms of the book. I think I used to be an actor, and I still write like an actor, where it's not the plot that shapes the book so much as the character and every character is going to have their own priorities. And there we all live in a subjective world. We all see the world differently. And so the world that the character sees is...

...going to be the world of the book. Like just, you know, quick example. In the woods, for example, there are supernatural changes to it because the narrator sees reality as fragile and unreliable and shifting under you and not something to be trusted. And so the world that he lives in is a little bit like that. Whereas in faithful place, where the narrator is very down to earth and very focused on solid fact, his world doesn't have any changes of supernatural. He'd have no time for that nonsense and so that the main character defines the world of the book and also defines the way the plot is shaped and the tropes are used. It's all about what the main character needs. I also read that you said your weary of the standard mystery convention of having a detective solving the public, solving the puzzle because, as you say, the detective is a symbol of authority and restoration of order. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, I realized I was finishing off the trespasser and went, I've done six books now, from the point of view of the detective, and I love that point of view. I think it's fascinating. I think the idea of somebody who deliberately chooses to go into this job as a fascinating thing. But it is. It's only one of the viewpoints in a murder investigation, and you've got, you know, victim witness, suspect perpetrator and for all of them, this process of really different thing for the detective. They're in charge of all the procedural stuff. They're driving it, they're controlling it, they're using it. As for them, it's empowered. It's a way that they like you say reimpose order. But for everybody else in there, This is not empowering. This isn't a force of order. This is just something that barrels into your life upends everything. You have no choice. You have no control. You have no say in any of this. And I wanted to give those other viewpoints of voice to so in the witch on which was the book before the searcher. The narrator is at various stages in the book. He's all of those his victim, perpetrator witness suspect and he tries. God bless him to be detective, but it doesn't really work out for him at all. I just felt like there's so many other ways to see the investigation and all of them are just as interesting. Gosh, it's so fascinating listening to how just listening to you talk about creating these characters and setting them in motion. And I want to dig a little bit more into that. But I'm also really interested in just you're incredibly rich sense of setting because I think it's one of the things that differentiates when there are so many things that differentiate your books from others. But that's something you really feel on every page. So Mary Kay mentioned that great quote from people about being able to practically smell the peat bogs, which sounds like an exaggeration. But it's true. So can you tell us a bit about how you so authentically we've you're setting into every layer of your books? I mean, it's not You're not giving us a scene and then, you know, going back to tell the story like it's woven in the dialogue, the rhythm, the description. Can you...

...talk a little bit about imbuing your books with that wonderful sense of setting? See, I love places I love not just places, but how deeply charged up they can become with memory and emotion for anybody who's who's experienced them. I think I kind of blame this on having moved around a load as a kid, which meant that every phase of my life was linked to a different place, probably in a different continent, you know what I mean? So for me, the place and the phase of life and the memories and the emotions are very deeply, very intrinsically linked, and when you leave behind the phase of life, when I was a kid. You also leave behind the place. They're they're kind of the same thing. They're interwoven. And so I I think I like to write like that as well. Where a place isn't just a a location. It is for a character. It's somewhere that has something of themselves soaked into it. And all their experiences come from that which was a little bit different in this book, actually in the searcher. Because Cal actually goes into that at one stage in the book, how he's not rooted in this place. He wasn't born out of it. He hasn't grown crops out of the ground. He hasn't left anything of himself in this ground. And yet over the course of the book, it does come to be somewhere that he's both planted and sewn experiences. And so it becomes much more deeply charged to him. Love that. Was that something somewhat personal to you as someone who wasn't born there either. I mean, you you How long have you been in Ireland? I'm 31 years almost so since I was a teenager. Oh, wow. So it has been a long time. Oh, my goodness. Okay. Have you felt that same sense, though of of having to establish your roots there since they didn't come naturally by virtue of birth. Yeah, it's an interesting one because it's as near to home as I've got, because I've, you know, I'm not from anywhere in particular. My parents are from a whole set of different places and grew up, and I grew up all over the place. There isn't actually anywhere that I would consider home. This is Dublin is the closest thing to it, but you're right. That's by virtue of living here a long time. I'm not like, you know, my husband is from a specific neighborhood of Dublin, where his family has been probably since the Vikings, and that's you know, that's route. Now that's proper roots, and I don't have those. I think it's not so much that I've had to establish myself more that like I'm never going to have those kind of roots anywhere. And it's got its advantages, especially for a writer as much as its disadvantages. Because you notice stuff, you know there are little nuances that you take for granted. If you live somewhere forever, you're going to take for granted that even the small stuff. This is how close you stand to somebody. Or this is the correct volume for speech. Or this is what it means if you pause for something or if you say a word in a certain way. If you've always lived there, you take for granted that that's the natural order of things. But if you're always moving around, you've got to get good at noticing that stuff...

...because otherwise you're going to be the weirdo. So you have to be very fast at noticing how the cultural nuances work appear in international bat, and that's useful for a writer noticing. Okay, that works this way in Rome. But it works that way over here. And, yeah, you get good at spotting. Let's go back to the Western Idea. I saw that you've been reading a lot of westerns and increase, including Charles Portis, is true grit, which I also loved. Was there one overriding device or idea that you used, um, for characters for the plot and characters and the searchers? Um, to me, What I saw right away was the idea of the flawed loan truth seeker and also the concept of frontier justice. Oh, yeah, there's a little bit of that thrown in there as well. Definitely know the one that I think stuck with me from the Westerns. Apart from that, this idea of dealing with good and bad and how they're not simple, the one that I really liked was the people being defined by actions rather than by thoughts or feelings. Because I just finished writing the Witch Home, in which basically the main action arc is all within the narrator's head. There is a lot of introspection and self exploration in that book. That's what it's all about. You know, he's he's had a brain injury. He's no longer sure who he is. He's trying to figure it out. This what he can put together from the broken bits of himself over the course of the book. And, well, that was interesting to write and a lot of yeah, a lot of fun to write. By the end of the book, I was going Man, this guy needs to get out of his head a bit more. I have had it with this, so I really wanted to write somebody who was much more defined himself in terms of action rather than a thought. And that definitely works in terms of Westerns, because that's what Western characters are like. They're about what they do, not about how they feel about something or what they think of something. And that's what Cal is. And that's what the book is third person as well, because it's not that you need to be inside his head inside his head isn't important to him. He's a guy who does not. I think it matters, particularly what you think, what you feel, what matters is what do you do? That's what defines you and so you don't need to be inside and you need to be seeing his actions. Those need to be the focus of the book. So yeah, I think that's the main character thing I took from. The Western is the man of action. So Tanya, you write about often. You write about very dark themes, and there's something I'm wondering about that. So I write about World War Two, which inevitably has a lot of darkness, and to be honest, the times I've had to dig the deepest and go to the darkest places in that work I've truly felt a shift at my core. It may not be a giant shift, but the work changes me, at least in a small way, when I have to dig that deep. Do you think that that is something that has changed you or shifted you as a person? This need in your work to keep going to those dark...

...places, to keep telling these stories you're telling? Has it affected who you are or how you feel about things or how you view the world? My first reaction is no, I don't think so. I think one of the reasons I've always loved mysteries, you know, I've always been fascinated by them. I don't care if they're real fictional, solved and solved. I'm fascinated by the process of solving mysteries. And while you do end up in dark places, I think there's something really lovely and really human about the fact that we all have that curiosity. We all want to know about mysteries for their own sake, not just for the sake of the solution, or we would all just read the first chapter of a mystery book and skip to the end. But for the sake of the process of solving them. And that's one of the things I love about people. It's our curiosities are interesting things, not not for the good they'll do us, but for the fascination that just learning new things holds. So I think that's more what I take away from the process of writing. But there's also the fact that again, coming from acting, you've got to have a fairly good boundary between work and outside life. Because otherwise you know you're doing some place like King Lear or the Scottish play. You're gonna go nuts by the end of the run. You have to be able to leave it, leave it at the office door at the rehearsal room door, and I think I'm I think that makes it easier as a writer to go. Yeah, this is some dark stuff, and humans have some dark things inside them, but they also have some amazing instance an amazing resilience. And if you're working on mystery, obviously you're working on that, too, because you're writing about people who come through these terrible experiences and find a new way to go forward and who pick up broken pieces and you do keep on living. So you're not just writing about. There are things I don't think in the street. You go through them, you deal with them, but they're not all there is to it. It's fascinating to hear you say that because I'm always interested in sort of the overlap between genres in the way you know, writers from different genres are telling stories. I feel the same about writing about World War two. It requires you to go these dark places, but it also it also allows you to tell, as you said, these inspiring stories and these stories of the best of humankind sort of in the darkest of times. So that's awesome. It's great to hear that you found that in your own work to Tana. And it seems to me in the searcher there is a sense of restlessness. You've got this beautiful, evocative setting in Western Ireland, and maybe maybe it's just me. But by the end of the novel, somehow I didn't get the feeling that tickle was as tied to the land and to end tied to his cottage as I believed in the beginning of the narrative. Now was that just something that I came up with myself or or in my way off base. See, I'm never going to say that a reader is way off...

...base, because once the books out in the world what you read your right? You know, I don't get to say anything goes on within the covered. If you say if you tell me it's about a talking dog, I'm going to go. Do you know you're right? You both. What did they say to you, though, right? There you go. That I want to know. Um that wasn't my take on it. I reckon that because he had put something of himself into this land and made the choice to word it right too. Bend to the rules of this place in order to do what was right for Trey. Right? To make this kind of sacrifice of his image of himself as the good guy on the side of justice. To sacrifice that in order to do what would keep trace, safest and happiest. I saw him as much more rooted in the land by the end of it again. I'm not going to contradict if you if that's what you found it. You're right. you're the boss now. Maybe it was just my Yeah, Maybe it was just me wanting of the reader, wanting to say to cow There's a lot worth staying here for. I wanted him to stay. Oh, he's staying. Wanted him to want to stay. Yeah. No, no, I think he's definitely saying, I think once he makes that commitment to to the kid, he's there, He's there. He can't back out of that because he has a moral code, and that turned out to be the heart of it when he had to pick. Okay, what's at the core of your moral code? What is when it comes when it really comes down to it? What is this? Are you a detective? Are you who's gonna, you know, be always in favor of bringing the criminal to justice, are you? Who are you? And it turns out that what he is at the heart of his moral code is the person who's going to look after this kid. So you mentioned the switch to third person. You mentioned the logic behind that. But this is your first book written in third person. Is that right? Yeah. Bits of the secret Place were written in third person. But no, this is the first one written entirely in third person. It's fun. And okay, I was gonna ask about that. And also with the first with a non Irish protagonist. Is that correct? Also, Yeah. So both of those were sort of departures for you. Was that a challenge? Was making a switch like that unsettling? Or do you think it was something that helped you to grow a little bit as a writer and maybe spread your wings a little bit in a different way? Yeah, definitely. The third person thing in particular was it was a challenge, but a really good one because it's so easy to get sucked so deep into all the characters thinking this. And he's feeling this and his feeling. No, you don't get that in third person. You can get a little bit of insight, but no, he has to do something. And one of the nice results of that was that this book is a lot shorter than any of my because I write doorstops and this is less of a doorstop. A lot less because you don't get all the introspection, but with the non Irish protagonist. That was again a result of the Western thing. It was because you know the stranger who walks into the saloon and he's kind of he's got a few secrets of his own and he's not telling and, you know, things are...

...gonna change around him. You know that. You know, maybe he's gonna shoot the villain and set everything back to write Or, you know, maybe he's going to get shot himself. Or maybe he's gonna shoot the hero and the girl will be left devastated. But he's going to disrupt the established order. He's going to be a catalyst. And in order for him to be an outsider, he could not be Irish because it's hard to explain how small Ireland is right. But if I had made him from right across the country, he could. Maybe he had never been to this little village before, but he would have gone out with a girl whose parents were from there, or his dad would have played poker with a guy from there or his mom would have trained with some guy from and within an hour during the shopkeeper and Information Bank, she would have found out that link, and she would have used it to kind of place him within the village framework because everyone in Ireland's connected and spot the connection is it's like the national sport. So be honest to God, People will find you and they will find how they know you. And he couldn't be Irish. He couldn't even be from, like Boston and New York. He just already too close. Yeah, it's way too close there. Somebody would have snog his sister in 1982. You have to be from somewhere else. You know the last. Yeah, The last interview I read with you, Donna. You talked about how you were feeling creatively blocked by the pandemic and the lockdown. And we talked a little bit about that before we started recording. Has that feeling lifted for you? Have you managed to harness that block to into something resembling a plot for another book? Beginnings of I have an idea, and I've started writing it, but man, I am still way behind where I should be. But it's not like it wasn't kind of the earlier part of last year. It was just like it's not just me. I think everybody just your brain is just a smoking crater where somebody crashed into it. And you're just going What just happened? I think we're all kind of regrouping. I'm going. Okay, this isn't a brief event. This isn't like a month or two that I just have to get through. This is something that's going to last longer, so I need to regroup and find ways to work within it rather than just waiting it out. So, no, I do have an idea. I have I'm writing away on it and hopefully going to get somewhere. I don't know what what pays. Because the other thing getting in my way was Never mind my self conscious. I had two kids doing distance learning, which it's fun and games. I don't know if you guys are doing this. Yeah, that was the voice of experience right there. Yeah. Christmas got a five year old. That's gonna be fun. Home schooling. Are they home schooling right now or are you back in real school? Yeah. We haven't sent him back. It doesn't feel right to me yet, so yes, he's here. How...

...old are yours? To minus 7. 11, and the seven year old went back to school this week, which has its good side and its bad side because, you know, they need other kids. She was so happy. But you know, the bad side is kind of obvious here, and the 11 year old officially goes back in a couple of weeks. But I don't know. I mean, the government's policy is that we should all pretend school walls are magic, so we don't really need to do anything like hybrid learning or masks or real social distancing or real contact tracing. We're just all gonna throw them in there and then say, Stick our fingers in our years ago. But now it can't spread in schools the walls around. So I don't know. I don't know how long this will last, but one of them is currently out of my hair, so I'm getting some right. Oh, I'm so jealous. Question where we are. We have so many more guys. I have this big water questions we wanted to ask you, but we're almost out of time. But thank you so much for going through all the hoops, um, to join us today and tell us a few of the stories behind your work and your life. Oh, it's been great listening to you and talking to you. Thank you guys so much out there. Sorry. No, no, no, no, no. I'm sorry. We'll take care of our script. Go ahead. See, I can't see you guys, so I can I can I don't I can't see when somebody's about to talk. So I end up talking over you. Sorry. I just wanted to say thank you so much for having me on. It's just been a pure joy. And I'm sorry about all the technological messing around. Uh, but we got there in the end, So thank you for being patient with my phone. Yeah. Oh, gosh. It was such a pleasure to have you. And I said to Mary Kay earlier. Wouldn't be friends in fiction if we weren't having some kind of attack problems. You. It wouldn't be my life if there was an attack problems. So I think we're all Yeah. Thank you to everyone out there for joining us today. Keep your ears out for more fascinating friends and fiction interviews coming up. And don't forget to tune in Wednesdays. at 7 p.m. Eastern time for our Facebook live show as well. In the meantime, if you're listening to this and you haven't read the searcher well, you must buy our guest, Tana French. But in the meantime meantime, stay safe and well and keep reading by everybody. Thank you for tuning in. Join us every week on Facebook or YouTube, where our live show airs every Wednesday night at 7 p.m. Eastern time. And please subscribe to our podcast and follow us on Instagram. We're so glad you're here. Yeah.

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