Friends & Fiction
Friends & Fiction

Episode 25 · 2 months ago

WB_S1E25 Kim Richey and Gretchen Peters

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

WRITERS' BLOCK: Esteemed Nashville singer/songwriters, Kim Richey and Gretchen Peters join Ron Block to explore the storytelling process in music and share insider tips and songs

I just always wanted to sing. I didn'twant to write songs, I didn't want to play the guitar all I really wanted todo. Yeah, same for me. Guitar. I picked up I learned at camp. I went to campfor, it was a camp for gifted Children. But really what it was, it was a campfor kids that hated anything physical. Like it was an arts camp. If you werean arty kid, it was like heaven welcome to the Friends and fictionWriter's Block podcast for new york times, Bestselling authors, one rockstar librarian and endless stories joined mary Kay andrews, Kristin,Harmel, Kristy, Woodson, Harvey and Patti Callahan, Henry along with RonBlock As novelists. We are four long time friends with 70 books between usand I am Ron Block. Please join us for fascinating author, interviews andinsider. Talk about publishing and writing. If you love books and arecurious about the writing world, you are in the right place. Welcome to theFriends and Fiction Writer's Block podcast. I am Ron Block and I am soexcited for this week's episode. We are all in for a wonderful treat.Previously we've explored storytelling that's beyond fiction. That's included,cookbooks, memoir, and poetry. But now we're going to add another category,songwriting. Our guest today epitomized the very best and singer songwritersand it's a personal thrill and honor for me to introduce you to GretchenPeters and kim Richey. Thank you both for joining me on the podcast. Thanksfor having us there. Can we still talk cooking even though Yes, absolutely. SoI want to tell you a little bit about each of them. And then we're going todive right into it. And apparently we're going to talk about cooking. SoI'm okay with that too. Um a little bit here. But please go to their websites,Kim Richey dot com and Gretchen Peters dot com. You're going to get this fullamazing biography. Their stories are so very long and you're gonna loveeverything you read. But for now, Gretchen has been one of Nashville'smost beloved and respected artists. If Peter's never delivers another tune asachingly beautiful as on a bus to ST cloud People magazine wrote. She hasalready earned herself a spot among countries upper echelon of contemporarycomposers. She's been inducted into the Nashville Songwriters Hall of Fame bysinger songwriter Rodney Crowell, who called her both a songwriter at a poetwho sings as beautifully as she writes. She's accumulated accolades as asongwriter for artists as diverse as at a James, Bonnie raitt NEville Brothers,Patty, Loveless George strait bryan Adams and Faith Hill, to name a few.I'm sure her song, Independence Day was...

...recorded by martina Mcbride and won aCMA Song of the Year in 1995. She's been nominated for two Grammys, AGolden Globe and numerous other awards. She is the recipient of multipleInternational awards. But most recently in 2021 she was awarded the Poets Awardby the Academy of Country Music for outstanding and long standing musicaland lyrical contributions throughout her career, her latest album the nightyou wrote that song the songs of Mickey. Newbury is a loving tribute to anotherHall of Fame songwriter and a profound influence on Peter's own writing. And Ialso want to add that when you receive the Poets Award, you received italongside someone coming up with Loretta Lynn. Yeah, Yeah. That wassurreal. Yeah, I bet we're going to ask you about that a little bit. So kimRichey is actually a former professional chef and she got her firstrecord deal at 37 she's garnered success as a songwriter co writing twonumber one hits. The Grammy nominated, Believe Me Baby, I lied for TrishaYearwood and nobody wins for Radney Foster along with being a Grammynominated artist. She's had many other songwriting contributions whichincluded songs for the Dixie chicks, Jim Lauderdale brooks and Dunn andPatty, Loveless. Her vocals have also appeared on albums by Ryan Adams andShawn Colvin along with several songs included in tv shows. She has won ravesfor her sweetly alluring folk friendly brand of country, often described ashaving the voice of an Angel. Her most recent release, a long way backreimagines her early success with a little album called Glimmer. It's abrilliant album and a brilliant re imagination of the classic glimmer withstripped down instrumentation. So, welcome again to both of you. Thank you.Thanks thanks for having us, wow, that's a Lot. That's my part, that's mypart. You two were like, I'm reading it and I'm just always so amazed at howmuch you've accomplished in your careers and your only, it was going tosay there's, there's there's a reason why those bios are so long, it'sabsolutely so you know, I, I gave a little bit of an introduction, but eachof you, can you tell a little bit about your career trajectory? You go first,my career trajectory. Well, I came, I came to all of this uh late uh in lifereally, I was, I played music and did a little bit of songwriting when I was incollege, But then I moved out to colorado and lived out there and um, Iwasn't playing music at all. I was cooking and doing a lot of outdoorstuff. I have the environmental ed degree. So I was working at naturecenters and then in restaurants too. Um, and then came to Nashville, just kindof on a lark uh Bill Lloyd and radney Foster Foster Lloyd convinced me tocome here. And uh, and we did, I mean, I never knew, did you ever think that,you know, growing up, it's like, well...

...what do you want to be, you know,doctor, lawyer, indian chief, like, you know, teacher without those, those kindof things, but I never, for a second thought that I could, I would make aliving as a songwriter. I didn't, I didn't really know that was a job for along time. It took me, I was in my late teens or twenties before I realized,hey, there are people who do you know? Yeah, when you don't, when you don't,don't do something like that, it just seems like magic. It seems like anunattainable kind of thing. You know, you can hear somebody, you know, liketo ever imagine that you'd ever hear yourself on the radio or something likeYeah, I think I also remember along those same lines. I remember being akid and hearing like Beatles songs and Beatles Records and thinking, I neverthought about like the process of writing this song because they seemedlike they had always been there like they were like rocks or something. Theywere just like elements fully formed. And so it wasn't like a natural thoughtprocess for me to think, oh paul and john sat down and wrote that like, theybashed down on a couple of guitars. I just didn't, it took me a long time tofigure that out, you know? So yeah, I was sort of the same way, but youprobably like me, you probably picked up the guitar and just started sort offiguring it out. Yeah, I should really be a much better guitar player actually,but I'm just really lazy. I started playing my mom bought me a guitar uhfor valentine's Day, a president and it was uh When I was like 12 or 13 orsomething and uh but I wasn't, I just always wanted to sing, I didn't want towrite songs, I didn't want to play the guitar all I really wanted to dosomething. Yeah, same for me guitar. I picked up, I learned at camp. I went toa camp for, it was a camp for gifted Children, but really what it was, itwas camp for kids that hated anything physical. Like it was an arts camp. Ifyou were an arty kid, it was like heaven. So um and I was seven but I amlike like you I say the same thing, I should be a much better guitar playerbut all I ever saw it as was a vehicle to to be able to have something to backme up so I could sing and later on so I could write so I kind of feel the sameway. Yeah and we probably like doing other stuff like I I like like we'retalking about food, you know earlier I like cooking and and you know just allthe outdoor stuff and and I wasn't somebody that was gonna sit in mybedroom on my own for hours and hours, you know practicing and I'm still love,I know I wanted I wanted to do other things too. Yeah. Yeah I did, althoughI did sit in my, there wasn't and you probably came, you were probably thesame way There was a period from about age 12 - 17. The real angst years whereI did sit in my bedroom and played the...

...saddest songs that I knew and you knowthis is in the decision in the past tense, this that not much has changed,but I mean, you know I did my wood shedding I guess you know those yearslike playing Jackson browne songs and um I think I had a sort of a similarTrajectory to Kim in some ways. I mean I didn't come to Nashville till I was29. Um I signed my first record deal I think nine years later, eight yearslater or something like that. Um So overnight success I like I alluded toearlier, I didn't really think of songwriting as a separate job. I thinkit was because I loved Joni Mitchell and paul Simon and bob Dylan and peoplethat were really true hyphen it. Singer songwriters. Um and I never saw singingand songwriting is really separate or recording or touring or anything. Imean I just, that's what I wanted to do. And so the idea to come to Nashvillewhich is a songwriter's town and realize, oh my god, there people thatnever leave town and they just sit in a room and write songs. Um but I didn'twant to do that. But I did realize when I got here I realized the song the songis the thing. And if if I could prove that I could write, well then I wouldbe at some point, if I were to get a record deal, I'd be allowed to recordmy own songs. That was my goal was just like, just prove that you can write sothat you can have a little control maybe later on. And that worked a lot better than Ithought. I mean, honestly, every song of mine that got recorded at thatbetween the time I got here and and and the time I made my first record, it wasa surprise to me. I'm always flattered and surprised when some what somebodyelse wants to sing that song. It's huge. It's huge to have someone else recordyour song because when you think of like all the songs that are out therethat they have a, you know, choice of and then they're only gonna pick maybe,you know, 10 or 12 songs for an album and as artists, we know both of us knowwhat it means to choose a song that you're going to sing because it couldpossibly mean you're gonna have to sing that thing every single night for therest of your life. So, you know, it's not, you don't do that lightly. I meanyou have to really, I feel like you can inhabit a song and you Can continue tofind things in it. You know, if you sing it 10 years from now or 20 yearsfrom now and you know, it has to be a really great song. Um so you canconnect to it to, it has to really...

...speak to you. Yeah. So yeah, I think Ithink we I think we've both been kind of on both sides of the equation andand I think that makes us both very grateful to the artists that recordedour songs because we know what a commitment that is it is. It is quite acommitment. They do you ever go like I don't want to let this song go. Never.Like it's it's so personal and close to you. There was only one song I feltthat way and it was early on and it was because I knew I was I was going to beputting out a record that was on a country label and I needed to have asong that was somebody thought was a hit and it was The Secret of Life and Iheld on to that song because I just felt I had a feeling about it and therecord company did and uh they had such a strong feeling about it that theysaved it for the fourth single. By that time my record had just tanked. And soit never, you know, it was like it was too little too late at that point. Andthen like two years later Faith Hill recorded it and it went to number oneand I was like, yeah, I knew it. I knew that. So, you know, I think that curedme of saving anything. I think it's fate. Yeah. I don't think people likethat, like a long time ago when we were first starting to write and stuff,there was a big thing about, you know, saving a song or if somebody else hadrecorded this song then you couldn't do it. And and I don't think that's such abig deal now. Um I think we thank, thankfully going more towards the folkway, which is everybody back in the folk days, You know, bob, Dylan wouldwrite a song is six people would record it. Yeah, I don't think there'sanything anything wrong with that. I mean people like to hear the differentversions and you know, so so no, no. And a couple of songs that I saved forme like after, well, I never thought I thought I'd get to make one recordmaybe. And then I would be found out. And uh you know, didn't get anotherchance, but but like, you know, 2nd, 2nd 3rd records, you know, I was savingsongs because I would have had publishers calling up going, we want topitch this song. And I said, no, you know, I'm saving it. And of course, Inever cut either of those songs that that they were wanting and I could havelet him go. But now it just doesn't like the more people that record a song.I think the more interesting it is really I do too. I do too. I think it'sit's kind of folly. You know, our job is to, to create the music. It's not todecide where it goes a great point. Great point. So, um let's talk aboutsongwriting is storytelling. Why do you think that that um is a thing? Why doyou think it's so important to tell a story through your lyrics and music?Well, I have many feelings about this.

Um let's hear some feelings. Let's doit many thoughts and many feelings. I think that songs create empathy. Ithink art in general creates empathy and, and songs much like two of myother favorite things, novels and movies, um put you inside someoneelse's skin for a little while. And and I think that stories are kind of theoldest way tell me a story, I think must be one of the oldest phrases inany human language because we see ourselves in stories, we see ourselvesand characters even characters that are really different from us because thereare only, as I think Shakespeare said about seven stories really, you canreduce kind of everything down to that. So, I think people really, really cravethat mirror that you're holding in front of them when you're telling astory, they get involved because there's a part of them that goes, youknow, that that feels a connection to the storyteller and the character inthe song and that's that's what creates this, this empathy. I think songs justare brilliant at just putting you inside somebody else's Head for fiveminutes. And if you can do that, you can. I mean I I know it soundshyperbolic, but I really believe you can change the world that way if youcan create that kind of empathy. But more often, moreover, I think that umwhat what you asked, you know, why is that important is that we we wanted ashuman beings, we want. That's why we have our is why we that's why we readbooks and why we go to movies and why we look at paintings and why we listento music as we we we want to hear our stories told to us because it makes usfeel that we belong to something bigger that we're connected. Yeah, I meanconnected to other people. I mean that's why I know all of us are likebig fans of sad songs and I think like, like when whenever, whenever I'mfeeling sad or something like that, I don't I don't want to hear a happy song,I don't want to hear like, you know, don't worry, be happy. Like if somebodyplayed that for me, I'd like to punch him or something. But you know, it'ssad song just makes you feel like somebody knows how you feel. And uhit's comforting and also I think of writing story songs or something fromanother person's perspective. Um it is interesting to me because I think eventhough like, like I have a song that I wrote from, you know, a perspective ofof uh fellow that works on a barge on the Ohio River. But really it's anothersong that I would I'm writing about myself, even though, you know, speakingin the voice of this character because...

...it's a you know, Love gone Wrong songand me pretending to be a barge guy. But you know, I think we we give away alot about ourselves in the songs, even when we're, you know, pretending to beanother character. I think there's a there's a lot of us showing around theedges. I love that song to just had, I really love that song. Um yeah, no, Ithink my, my great example of that, what kim is talking about is um johnSteinbeck and the Grapes of Wrath. I mean like anybody who is reading theGrapes of Wrath at this moment was not an okie escaping the dust bowl andgoing to California, I mean none of us have had that experience at this point.That was 100 years ago. So, so, in a sense, you know, Steinbeck wrote aboutthis character that has nothing in common with us and yet, you know, youyou can't read that book and not feel this tremendous deep empathy with TomJoad because he's going through some of the most basic stuff that humans gothrough and we we all can relate to it and it's incredibly moving to watch ithappen when Steinbeck lays it out in the book. That's so true. And peoplethink I'm weird for really enjoying a really sad book, really a book thatjust makes you feel a lot and thank you for explaining that. So well, there'sjust you know, that it's the bottom line is there's two kinds of people inthe world, there's people who love who finds sad songs depressing and thenthere's us and those other people are wrong, just like feeling something, youknow, it's really great though, even if it's a it's a great sadness. That'scathartic, you know, itself there even that's the kid super sad catharsis.What was the book? The one of the saddest books I've ever read, and Iloved it so much. Was is it the God Goddess of small things or the God ofsmall? Yeah, I started reading that book and you know, I was just kind oflike literally just reading along and I got a little bit into it and I thought,oh this is a really, really good book. I'm going to start all over again andI'm going to pay attention and not just blast through it, but I mean I was youknow, I was crying when I was reading it, but there was something about it,it's just you know, just made me, I don't know. I feel feel good. That'sexactly you hit the nail on the head. So do you have a favorite song or afavorite C. D. Not? I'm speaking from experience or anything that you pop onwhenever you kind of need that. Oh, I could go to, oh, I've got a playlistlike eight hours long. I mean like I can think of some examples off the topof my head. There's a, there's a...

Jackson Browne song which is actuallylater in his catalog called Sky Blue and Black. There's something about,it's not just the lyrics, but there's something about the music that justcracks me open every time. It just bust me wide open. Um, I can pretty muchlisten to anything jimmy Lafave sings and cry because of his voice. You know,it's like the other thing is it's not always just about the lyrics, likemusic all by itself, pull some amazingly intense emotions. You don'thave to, you don't have to think about it. I mean, you can listen to adagiofor strings and just like I'm weeping. You know, uh yeah, there's, there's alot. I collect, I collect those. Even like certain songs I've collected about20 or 30 versions of Moon River for some reason. My favorite song is itreally? Yeah, that's my favorite song song of all time for some reasonperfect Moon River just destroys me just destroys me the melody and the andthe lyrics all of it. It's just, it just has this beautiful melancholything too. It does this, it does well for, to put something on. I remember Iwent to uh, I went and saw a movie things called In The Name of the Father.And uh, it was about, it was based on a true story and it was so, it made me sosad and feel so bad. Like there just wasn't anything good in the world. AndI remember coming home and I couldn't, I couldn't think of anything to do tomake myself feel better. Like, you know, I didn't want to call any, I didn'twant to talk to anybody. There wasn't anybody I could think of. And, and Ijust felt just bad and then I put on crowded house, just the beauty of themelody, you know, their melodies and stuff. It's like, okay, I feel, I feelbetter. I feel better now, wow. Yeah. For me it's Wichita Lineman. That's agreat song. Yes, Yeah, sometimes my husband barry will be the piano is inthe, we have a long kind of shotgun house and the piano's in the front roomand I will hear him playing the piano and he'll usually, it's bach, which isjust like math to me. Um, but then he'll bust out into something likeWichita Lineman or um, you know, one of those classic song or lately he's beenplaying God only knows, but the Beach Boys and I will literally be on theother end of the house hearing that piano come back to me and I'll justlike start crying because the melody is just that beautiful. Yeah, yeah. Andthe storytelling is just amazing. So we've talked about the end product.Let's go back a little bit and talk about putting the songs together. Howdo you, do you I know that for, for writers who write books, they havetheir own process and they're all very...

...different. What's your process forputting a song together? Like where do the ideas come from? Well, I mean, allsorts of ideas come from from all over the place. I mean, you can uh, you canget ideas. You know, singer songwriters from our own lives. There's a lot ofthat, you know, here's another song about me and uh, then there, you know,in relationships or you know, I like to sit in coffee shops and uh, that's onething I really miss this past year and a bit people watching and justlistening to people, but books, movies. I mean any, you're just as a songwriter,I think you're just always on the lookout for ideas for a song. Like I, Igot an idea for a song from Hill street Blues from something that sipowicz hadsaid character, you know about that, but just like just just all over theplace. One of my favorite songwriters stories is Mike Reid was talking aboutwhen they wrote I Can't Make You Love Me, which is one of the most beautiful,I never get tired of hearing that. We talk about a hard opening song, it's sobeautiful. But the way he got the idea for that song was there was an articlein the newspaper, I can't remember Shamblin, that's who he wrote that with.So they were together too right? And there was an article in the newspaperabout this guy who had been brought to court because there was a restrainingorder put on him to leave his, I don't know if it was his ex wife, hergirlfriend, ex girlfriend or whatever to leave her alone and he wouldn'tleave her alone. He kept going to her house and you know, calling oneverything until finally she did a restraining order and now he stilldidn't do it until he's up um talk to the judge and the judge says, you know,you you have to leave this woman alone, you know, she doesn't want you and youhave a restraining order, you know, argument. And he said he said, well Iguess you're right, judge, you know, I can't make her love me. And I startedout writing that song, like some kind of joke song, It was a blue Heat miketold me it was starting out as I can't make, it was a bluegrass thing, like aGoofy song and it turned into the like, oh my, that's one of my most favoritesongs. That is incredible. You have to follow the song to like that songdidn't want to be a goofy bluegrass song, It wanted to be what it turnedinto. So you have to kind of, you know, and say attention to that. Speaking ofprocess that that is a really important point. That's a big part of the processis understanding that as the writer, you're kind of along for the ride. Likethe song is gonna tell you where it wants to go and a big part of yourresponsibility when you're writing it is listening to that and not sayingYeah, but I wanted to write an up tempo bluegrass song or you know what I mean?You have to listen to the song, tell you what it wants to be. Um and that'sthe muddy, murky middle part of the...

...process. That is hard and um kind ofmakes you beat your head against the wall a lot of the time because you know,usually if you're stuck in some way or it's not going well, it's becauseyou're not listening to that because you're trying to force it around peg ina square hole or vice versa or whatever that saying is. So that is, that is areally, I think really important part of the process for me, the ideas,usually our verbal there, some kind of lyric, they're a title or a line oreven a word or even a concept, like a thought like I remember having, I wrotea song a couple albums ago called the Boy from Rye. And actually when I, whenI, I had the idea for that song, it wasn't, there was no lyric or music oranything. The idea was, I really want to write about how I felt When I was 13years old and trying to figure out what this, what was expected of me asassumed to be woman, you know, girl puberty and all the stuff she goesthrough internally and that kind of weird transition that most of most ofus made in our heads, unfortunately from being the subject of our own livesto being an object and that it's, and when I had that idea, I wassimultaneously really excited by the idea of writing about it and terrifiedbecause I knew it's really big. I mean you could write a novel about that andwriting a five minute song is, you know, how am I going to do that kind of thing.But but for me, they're usually, I'm not the person who gets melodiesswimming around in my head and go, that's kind of cool. Put some words toit on the melody, swimmer. Yeah, yeah. But then it shows. But then like musicalways kind of does comes first for me except for maybe I'll get a coupleideas for lyrics, but it's usually musically inspired. but that's kind ofhard to, because it is hard for me because every time I sit down and think,oh, I'd like to, you know, write a song now instead of just like puttinganother melody on my phone. Um it's, I always think every time I sit down islike, I'm never going to write another song, it's too hard. I think no matterhow you are, that's every writer feels like I know I feel that way. Yes. Like,I don't know, what do I have to say? I think the older I get too, it's like,well, what do I want to say now? I think I haven't said already, I agreewith that. And I think part of that is because the more, the longer you dothis and you know, presumably you're...

...always trying to get better and betterat it. The target gets higher and higher and farther away. You know, thetarget that you're trying to hit your really? I mean, I'm trying to writesongs that are better than the last ones that I wrote and that gets harderand harder and you don't let yourself off the hook so easily by just throw,you know, allowing throwaway lines or, you know, kind of half passing it, youjust, you just, I mean, I'm done with that. I don't want to do that. I wouldrather not write anything than to have my doubts about you ever having a halfasshole your songs. I'm not buying that. I check your junk drawer. You give me ayellow highlighting pen and I'll show you Uh huh. So basically you get thesethings in your head and five minutes later you've got the finished product.That's pretty much that worked that long. I'm amazed at how similar whatyou're saying is two authors that I speak with also because a lot of theprocess is the same that the ideas dog you and and you always think that thenext book has to be better than the one before and you're always reaching forhigher and more. Um so do you sit down and kind of like work this through ordo you kind of um just or do you do it different ways? Like how do you get itfrom your brain to, to the paper? I am a very um, I would say I have equal myright brain and left brain both function at about the same level. Imean I can be very organized and I was an accountant at one point in my lifeearly on, I mean, so I have so I have to really, really, really try and beconscious of not um try to write a song. Like I'm solving an equation. Like Ihave to shut that linear logical part down and let the subconscious do thework because that's where the real gold comes from. You know, the really like I,I tell I when I teach writing, I tell my students this, I think this is moreillustrative of the power of the subconscious than anything, every linethat I can think of, that I've written that I'm really, really proud of that.I think that was perfect. I have no memory of writing it. I have memories,many memories of pounding out the rest of the song, you know, with getting thehammer the nails out and try to make everything fit and, you know, make itbe a sturdy little song. But the really what you would call inspired lines orwhatever. I never remember where I was or what I was doing when I wrote them.And I think the reason for that is they come from a much deeper place. Theycome from the subconscious. So, for me, the trick is getting that that editorin my head that, you know, she's a mean...

...girl, getting her out of the room andletting myself just play like, you know, that's the hard, hard thing when you'rewriting is is not is a not to edit yourself, you know, that's that'ssupposed to come later later. And and then that's a great thing that at theediting, that's fun once you get the song done and then you go back and workon and then you take a look at every single word. I mean, that's Yeah, andthat's but you're right, that's like, definitely a much later thing. And Itend to want to like, you know, like, oh, I got a great idea. Let's clampdown on it right now and write it and it just doesn't work that way.Sometimes. I mean, sometimes they sometimes for me, they take months, youknow, I have to put him down. Yeah. Later. Yeah. I've had songs that, thatI've, you know, worked on for a couple of years. The Snow Song, like that'sthat hung around forever. Because I had the first part came out really fast,careful how you go. The first part came out really fast. And then then it'slike I pick up the guitar and start playing. It's like, no, not feeling it.Just put it, you know, put put it back away. But um, yeah, I think also too,with uh, the subconscious sing, I'm trying to be better about that becausea lot of times if I'm coming up with these melodies, I've found that if Ijust, if I just sing nonsense words and it's really hard to do that even whenyou're on your own, it's like, you know, you know the mean girls going, that'sstupid, you know, you're here the entire time. But if I just go, not lala la, when I'm doing a melody, it's harder to come up with a lyric for thatmelody because it's not inspired by like even the sounds of the words a lotof times. So, so yeah, any little word and sometimes I'll go back and listento uh like, you know, just recordings of song ideas, music ideas and there'llbe a, you know, a lyric in there that I don't really understand. And then I'lleven, I'm not even sure what the words are, but then you go, oh, well, maybeit's this and even if it's not that works, it's it's kind of like finding alittle bit of, you know, little fire flying. What is this thing? I don'tknow what it means. I don't know, but that you can trust that's our job. Ithink that's just like, because that's why um like the music inspires me for aword or a phrase or something. And then I think, okay, well, where does thatcome from? And why did that pop out? And what does that mean? And how can Imake this into something more than just this more? Exactly, yeah, Oh God, Icould do this all week. Welcome to the week long podcast. Would much prefer totalk about writing that actually. Right,...

So way with all right, that's probablythe same for everybody. Old thing. You know, How do you get a writer to cleanhis house? You tell him to write? How do you get them to write? You get tellthem to clean this out? Yeah, that's so true. So true. That concludes part oneof our two part episode with kim and Gretchen, wasn't it amazing Tune in onDecember 17, but we will present part two. Thank you for tuning in to the Friendsand Fiction Writer's Block podcast. Please be sure to subscribe rate andreview on your favorite podcast platform, tune in every friday foranother episode, and you can also join us every week onfacebook or Youtube, where our live Friends and Fiction Show airs at sevenp. M. Eastern Standard time. We're so glad you're here.

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