Friends & Fiction
Friends & Fiction

Episode · 1 year ago

WB S1E4: Mary Kay Andrews with Cindy Spiegel & Julie Grau

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Mary Kay Andrews interviews Cindy Spiegel & Julie Grau about their journeys in publishing culminating in the opening of their independant publishing company Spiegel & Grau

Welcome to the Friends and Fiction Writer's Block podcast. Five new york times, bestselling novelists, endless stories joined mary Kay andrews, Kristen, Harmel, Christie Woodson, harvey paddy, Callaghan, Henry and mary Alice Munro along with librarian Ron Block as novelists were five longtime Friends with more than 80 published books between us and I am Ron Block. Please join us for fascinating author interviews and insider talk about publishing and writing. If you love books and are curious about the writing world, you're in the right place. Yeah, Friends and fiction is sponsored by Mama Geraldine's bodacious food. Cathy Cunningham was a successful but unfulfilled radio executive in Atlanta one night while sipping wine and snacking on expensive cheese straws, she realized her mama Geraldine's own cheese straw recipe is far superior. The idea for Cathy's company was born Mama Geraldine's cheese straws now come in six varieties and they are the best selling cheese straw in the United States plus the cookies are melt in your mouth, delicious yummy snacks and a woman owned empire. Now that is something that we here at Friends and fiction can get behind try them, you'll be so glad that you did get 20% off on your online order at Mama Geraldine's dot com with the Code Fab five snack on y'all. Hi everyone, I'm mary Kay andrews. Today we're here to take a peek behind the curtain of the book publishing industry and I'm going to be chatting with publishing veterans julie Grau and Cindy Spiegel about the state of the publishing business. You may not know this. But in the past decade, book publishing has seen waves of consolidation. Random house bought penguin harper Collins bought harlequin and Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Hachette bought perseus at the end of last year, America's largest publishing house penguin. Random house announced plans to by Simon and Schuster the third largest among the remaining so called Big Five. This move, which has triggered antitrust concerns, would create a true mega publisher and it would profoundly reshaped an industry that seems to becoming more and more of a winner takes All Environment. Now, let's change tracks a little bit. Just weeks after this giant move was announced, publishing veterans Cindy Spiegel and julie growl revealed that they were starting up their own small independent publishing house. The timing was uncanny. Just as the publishing world shifts toward Behemoth, they are launching a boutique and who doesn't love a boutique as they prepare to publish the first Spiegel and Grau title next week, we thought this would be a great time to talk to them about the current publishing landscape and their place in it, julie Grau and Cindy Spiegel, our guests today, they are publishing veterans nearly three decades ago, they started the Riverhead imprint where they published Suzie Orman and the Dalai Lama and such groundbreaking works as Khaled Hosseini's the kite runner, James Mcbride's The Color of Water and junot Diaz debut story collection drown in 2000 and five. They were wooed away to Random House to start their own imprint, also then called Spiegel and Grau where they published Suzie Orman. It's too early for me, jay Z The Beastie Boys. Trevor Noah Chelsea handler and the phenomenon called Orange is the New Black among many others. So welcome, Cindy and julie, thank you, thank you. Everything good, everything's great. Yeah, Cindy just flew in from the coast as we like to say. The first thing I wanted to ask you ladies because so many of our listeners come to this podcast as readers. I would love it if you would tell us about your first book...

...published under the new Spiegel and Grau, we would love to tell you about that. Um So our first book is a memoir called Fox and I an uncommon friendship by a biologist named Catherine raven Who is a solitary person. She left home at 15, had an unhappy childhood, which she doesn't talk about in the book. So it's a memoir, but it's not really her whole life story. It's really it really focuses on her friendship with a wild fox whom she met in Montana. She noticed that the Fox started visiting her every day at her little property was very isolated at 4:15. So you know, she teaches online, she is she's a professor and she takes groups into the national parks. She was a parks ranger for many years, but she doesn't have visitors and she doesn't deal with people at all. So when the fox started showing up every day, she felt a kind of confusion and obligation to have a guest, you know to be a host to it and didn't know what to do. She doesn't even really know how to talk to people as friends. And here was this visitor who came every day. So she brought her camping chair out of her house, sat down very close to him and started reading the little prince to him because that was easier than talking. And the book Chronicles their four year friendship. It's really beautiful By the end, you really believe that their friends, she is a biologist. So she was very wary of giving him assigning him a personality because as a biologist you're taught to not anthropomorphized animals. But when you read the book and in her real life, she understood that they were really friends. And that's our first book. It came to us in the most fortuitous manner. I met her about two years ago now at a writer's conference, I wasn't working at the time, julie and I were planning, we were plotting this, this new incarnation of Spiegel and Grau, but we had no assurance that would get become a real company and I asked her to wait for us and she did. And we we if you look at our logo, you'll see there's a fox in the logo. Um you notice that and that is our origin story. That's an amazing one, Julia. Do you want to tell a little bit about all the great stuff that's already happened for the Fox? And I it's made it onto many summer read lys kicking off with the new York Times Summer read list, which grouped the books that they selected into different categories. And the first category was I want to read the books that everyone will be talking about this summer and Fox and I was part of that. So that was really exciting for us. But it's made it onto people um Buzzfeed. We just had an amazing review in the Wall Street Journal this weekend, which were so happy about and the book goes on sale in july six. So yeah, and it's also an indie next pick, An amazon editor's pick, People magazine, best book of Summer on and on and on time Curtis and Buzzfeed. What does it mean to you all have such a fortuitous buzz about your first project right out of the gate? Well, I would say that it gives us a lot of confidence that we're on the right that what we're doing works. So the reason that we left corporate publishing was that we felt that it wasn't best serving our books. Corporate, you know, publishing can be amazing. They're, you know, they're they're big, they're strong and if you're the right book, they'll put all their forces behind you and and they can create a best seller, if they determine, you know, if they decide that a book should be a bestseller,...

...they'll put all their resources behind it and it will likely succeed. But if they don't put their resources behind it, the book gets lost. And the books that julie and I published tend to not be obvious at all. You know, we always feel were either a little ahead of the curve for maybe a lot to put two ahead of the curve, you know, sometimes, um we like being first with with our books publishing books that we haven't seen before, books that strike us is really original and new. And so those are the books that aren't obvious even in the corporate structure. So the fact that this book which we're putting all of our resources behind is getting the kind of attention we thought it could get, you know, we believed it could get means that this smaller, the smaller um company with it was by small. I only mean number of books, you know, I don't mean our ambitions um really can create big books when julie and I are able to determine which books we want to publish, which books we want to put our resources behind and really push out to the world. So this the attention that it's getting really shows us that we can make a book without the corporate structure behind us. Yeah, I would can I add something to the thing I want to say that the other the other joy and also strategy, business strategy that Cindy and I have had in starting this company as an independent is to reconnect with independent booksellers and you know, your readers who are who are avid and dedicated readers also know that that their local independent bookseller co. Is an incredibly powerful force in in what in determining what people read and their advocacy means everything. And Cindy and I you said you called us veterans like three times in the introduction. So I don't want to say that we're veterans because it makes us sound old, but we do have long we do have long relationships with, we're not Newton's, we're not movies. And that was something else that had gotten lost in the in the shuffle. And then the scale of of us working in a big house is that um you know, by necessity, because there's so many books and there's this massive sales department, the editors and publishers are often kind of out of the equation when it comes to communicating with booksellers Cindy and I started as an independent so that we could reconnect with the power of these booksellers and their advocacy. And we made a concerted effort as part of our launch and as part of the launch of this book to get it into the hands of independent booksellers and to capitalize on the long memories and the goodwill that we felt from this community. So that's that's been another kind of proof of concept that we've had. And I think I think what julie is also referring to is the wall that goes up in the big houses between sales and editorial. Right? When when I started as a young editor at a tiny imprint called Tickner and Fields, which was part of Houghton Mifflin, I dealt directly with my sales force. You know, I presented at sales conference, I had, you know, there were sales reps that I liked a lot or who liked me and we had a special relationship and you could turn to them when you wanted, you know, you have questions or you wanted an advocate. And then when we were publishers at Riverhead, of course we had very strong relationships with our sales force. But when we got to Random House and as Random House merged with penguin and the houses got bigger and bigger, that wall became higher and higher. And by the end, even as publishers, we really didn't have a direct relationship with sales and certainly not with our with our sales...

...reps. And we as an independent publisher are working within grams two rivers as our distribution company. And they are partners with us. You know, we call them directly, Their reps are in touch with us. It feels so much more old fashioned. And I'd like to say, you know, in addition to the support from the Indies, we also feel great support from amazon and from Barnes and Noble who have been amazing in in this process. And I think it's a lot of it is that we can just have that relationship with our sales team. And so in some way, the company feels very old fashioned and it also feels forward looking. You know, I think it's for this time, it's the right kind of moment when you need things to become more personal and you need to feel that editorial passion and advocacy. Yeah, we're going to talk a little bit more about that because you guys have got some exciting kinds of things that you are starting off with right away. Tell me about when you were talking about the first book that you would put out. Okay, so Cindy already said that you'd asked um the author of Fox and I to wait on you, did you have anything else up your sleeve or did you think, oh memoir, that's what we want to do right away now, we just know when the right book comes along, we have, we can identify it and the book gave us the book, gave us purpose, it gave us something to work towards, We had to publish the book, we wanted to publish the book and put it out in the world and and so it's been incredibly helpful for us to to be able to kind of blaze the pathway and build the infrastructure to publish this one book as we launched the company and the other project that we did have though, we had another project that it wasn't a book we brought. We have a podcast that we're lunching in october, were co producing with Lemonade a Media. And this came from one of our authors from the old Spiegel and Grau who is a reporter who was reporting a story on domestic violence, which she told me about over lunch, you know, just as a social as in a social lunch. And we realized that this was a podcast. One of the things about our new company that julie and I recognized early on is that storytelling is broader than just books and this is a moment when everybody is very hungry for stories. So we decided when you know if you could create a publishing company from the ground up at this moment, what would it look like? And we thought you know what it would be about stories, it wouldn't be limited to format. And we are calling ourselves a multimedia company. And it was very exciting that we had a podcast to start Also, you know, we have someone on our team, works in film and television. She sells books to film and television and we're stood in finding all sorts of ways to tell stories. So yes, we had one book and then we soon later, you know, had one podcast And we now have 11 books under contract. So we're feeling very good about this whole concept and very excited. We're getting the kinds of books that we were hoping for. These are books that we have one at auction from The Big Five, which makes us very proud. But also suggests that we're onto something, you know, that writers and authors understand that they weren't being served at the big house. They can get lost so easily in the big house. You can do really well at a big house but you can get lost and I think there needs to be another kind of model that's smaller. That really only takes the books on that. We actually want to publish that. We want to put our efforts behind. How big is your list going to be, do you think, have you, have you map that out? We're going to publish 15-20 titles a year. That's...

...kind of what we've determined based on our experience is our sweet spot. It's the right amount of titles to be able to devote the kind of attention that we want to teach one to publish. And by contrast, what would one of the big houses, one of the big five houses? What, how many titles would they publish in a year? Well, give our uh imprint like, I don't even know Cindy. Do you imprint like? Random house probably publishes about 250 titles a year. It's my guess. I don't know. That's kind of a guest, you know, I imagine that when you work in a major corporation there are so many chiefs, so many indians, so many departments. They handle all the minutia of all aspects of the business, some that you might never have needed to know when you were editing and publishing when you're running your own shop. I guess you have to have your hands and everything. Are you learning as you go? And do each of you have a specialty? Does Do you both at it? Do you both acquire? How does that work? Uh we we are kind of intuitively complimentary Cindy and and and I and I think that's evolved over the 25 plus years that we've worked together. We both at it. We're both very hands on as editors go. And we have hired editors who edit similarly to us two. And and that's, you know, that's that's paramount for us. And and you know, as Cindy said before, part of our concept of starting this was too, was old fashioned in some ways, but forward looking in others. And the old fashioned part is to is to reassert the the importance of the author editor relationship. So yes, we're hands on and and we are very attentive to details and we're not afraid to get elbow deep in a manuscript in terms of, in terms of how we divide the labors, there's some things that, you know, two heads are better than one and there's some things that One of us will just take it and the other one we'll take something else. Like I said, it's it's a kind of uh intuitive choreography, I think that we have at this point. Yeah, we've been doing it for so long I think, but I think that other people catch on quickly, you know, when they get to witness. The other thing I'll say is that yes, we're learning all the time. There's so many things we didn't know, you know, so many systems things, we never had to worry about. How do you do get a bar code for the back of your book? You know? There are so many things that we've caught at the last moment, but we're learning and we've caught them all luckily. Um we also have a team, you know, we're a team of eight people right now. We have a C. 00 who we worked with at Riverhead and who's amazing and she's the one who is learning the most, you know, because she's figuring out all the systems stuff that Julian I never did before. But we have a lot of great partners, you know, this is not just about what we know, but we have partnerships so that ingram will help us with keywords and data and you know how to do um amazon advertising, you know, we have resources to go to when we don't know something and it's that's part of the joy of creating this from the ground up is that we're learning so much and we're starting to understand even what we did before in a totally new way. So it's been exciting and fun and challenging at times, but but we're learning every day. That's great. Talk to me about getting your brand name back. What did it mean to you all to reclaim Spiegel and Grau and did you have a backup name planned if you couldn't get it back? Because um, I don't know if our listeners understand intellectual property is a real thing. And um, so talk about that a little bit if you would. The brilliant thing is that we knew we could get it back because when we started Spiegel and...

Grau, our lawyer, because it was our names told us we needed to own our names and it wasn't in our initial agreement when we first went to random has that we owned the name? So we were aware that we could get it back and that has been so important to us because it is our brand and we're starting with a known recognizable brand so that we feel that we felt that was very powerful and we, we didn't want to change the name. The name was part of what we felt would attract investors, attract writers, make us not seem new, you know, because we're not, you know, we've been working together for so long and and it gives us a real recognizable jumping off place. Yeah. It allowed us to build on what we did. I would just also say that that payment random house was actually very, very good about the that transition and and allowing us to take back the name. Did you ever think about after, after you left about going separate ways, starting up different things? And and by the way, what's the secret sauce for this decades long collaboration? Like we didn't know about going separate ways. We didn't mean we kind of why would we we um, we talked to everybody we talked to, we talked to other big publishers. We talked individually, We talked together. You know, we, the secret sauce is trust. The secret sauce is common standards and values. And you know, I always for years back dating back to Riverhead, thought if I had, if I were a writer, I would want Cindy to be my editor. I would imagine we better editor in the business of advocate. So you know, I mean it has to start from from trust and mutual respect. We actually edit each other. So I just return the compliment because um, you know, so many things that I send out to people are edited by julie. Um, so, you know, I I do think that there is something a little bit magical about the way we work together. That is the reason that we've stayed together for so long and I don't really, you know, I can't define what it is, but we both had many opportunities to go in separate directions. And when we left random House, we just looked at each other and knew that we were going to stay together, good for you. You know, most of the big houses have men in the top roles, I think what of course the biggest house does have a woman at the top? Right? Yes. Yeah. But most of them, four out of the five houses have men at the top. What does it mean to you as women to be running your own show? It's It feels like a culmination of, you know, 30 years of hard work and publishing. And it feels liberating and empowering and a little there's a little bit of trepidation in the mix because we so want this to succeed for all sorts of reasons, but it's also kind of refreshing and wonderful that we actually don't have to think about ourselves as women in a corporate structure. We're just we're just uh founders and we're free to kind of focus on the business and focus on the books. And we're kind of politics free at this, at this level and at this cohesive group of ours. Yeah. The key for us is the autonomy. You know, the the key is that we get to decide what our priorities are and by this time in our career, we feel that we've earned that, right, and that our track record is it bears that out. And it's, you know, could be very frustrating when we...

...would have a vision for a book. I mean, that is what our talent is, right. It's identifying the books that we think people want to read. And after all these years, we've identified so many books that have gone on to prove us right. That it it's frustrating when you have to continually convinced people every single time that, you know, they should pay attention to your book when we have our own company. We we know what we're putting our money behind because it's our money and we've decided to spend it, right? Yeah. Yeah. Tell us about your team. How big is it? And how did you go about building it? I looked at your website and saw, I thought it was really interesting that instead of having just boring photos, you had like drawings right of your team. Is that right? Yeah. We had, that was kind of an aesthetic choice. Um, we're we are a team of nine. We as Cindy mentioned R colo, Jackie Shetty. We worked with years ago when we were starting Riverhead and she was the assistant to the president of the company. And we always loved Jackie and thought she was eminently capable and uh, so we knew that we wanted to reconnect with her and she has a wonderfully, she complements our skill set in terrific ways and also she had gone on to do a lot of amazing things within penguin. She, she was the founder of the speakers bureau, which was the first speakers bureau at any publishing house. She went on to work in emerging markets. She worked at penguin press in the UK. So it wasn't as if she had done a lot. She was like a kind of Jack of all trades, right, who seemed very entrepreneurial to us, which is the kind of person that we were looking for. Yes and AMY Match we knew as our colleague at Penguin Random House Audio. She'd been a penguin, Random House audio building, that business over 18 years and we were thrilled to be able to reconnect with her and have her join us and and develop our audio program Sam Nicholson, I'm gonna zag over to SAm sam work down the hall from us. He had started out at Random House, Susan Kamel who was a beloved publisher, Random House as her assistant and then built his list and became an editor at Random House and Cindy and I always admired how hard working he was. And also this word will keep coming up entrepreneurial on behalf of his books and as I said earlier, we like the way he edits, we knew that he was not afraid to get into a kind of thorny manuscript and and work through it and worked very intensively with his writers. Sam also is one of these people who is blessed to be a connector. And Sam suggested that we meet Lizza Wachter, who was kind of amazing that we hadn't known Lizza all these years. Lizza and her partner, Sylvie Rapinoe had started a kind of the premier book to screen agency and built that company over 16 years and sold it to to W me um and Eliza was not a corporate type either and was working as a in a managerial capacity with some of the writers and missed the Daily Connection. And um we met her in a perfect moment and she joined our team because that's as we said earlier, like we we see publishing in a more expansive way and and part of that necessarily has to be the film and tv piece because it's so much a part of the spectrum of expression and um and so it's amazing for us to have Lizza onboard from from day one from before even acquisitions, she's she's among...

...our team of readers and uh Jackie introduced us to Sarah kim who's our digital director. Sarah had worked in the publisher's office at Crown and then went to grad school and got a degree in digital design for learning. And Sarah also is this amazing, really quick study and has a skill set digitally and is able to create stuff. And she is running managing our social media presence, our website digital marketing and she's she's an amazing kind of secret weapon that we have. Sam also introduced us to erin Robertson who was a young editor at a literary magazine called lit Hobbit Online magazine. He's a translator, he's a journalist, he's incredibly accomplished and very young um and a writer himself and he's an editor that we've hired. And uh Natalie Wilson provides administrative support, working with Liza on the West coast and who have I I left anyone out. No, that's that's who we are. And you know, just to answer your question, as julie said, we we never went out looking for anybody. You know, everybody came to us kind of organically where while we were building the business, we connected with someone or realized that someone was available that we knew already started having conversations. It all happened very organically, as did the business itself. You know, the business that's what's been so fun about it and also makes us feel that it's going the way it was supposed to go because it's all happened organically naturally. Um it feels right. You know, every piece that we, you know, it's funny, it's kind of funny. Um every time we think so we need something, we need someone to help us with. Sales are, you know, our sales director, wonderful sales director at ingram, Retired Medi Goldberg, and he's consulting with us now. So we have you know we found the pieces of the puzzle seemed to present themselves when we need them so far. So far so good. And um yeah we were I have to think that word is out that you're good people to work with or people wouldn't be coming to you. I hope so. So tell me tell me what it's like to launch a business in the middle of a pandemic. Have you all been able to have any person? The great thing about lunching under in a pandemic is that we work under the radar right? You know that publishing is such a gossipy social industry and it would have been impossible for us not to run into old friends or have conversations and and feel that it was getting away from us in some way. You know, we didn't want we wanted to do it quietly and to put the pieces together in the proper way. And so, um we were able to do that under the cover of the pandemic. Um we luckily had met almost everybody before the pandemic, except for Aaron Aaron we met on online, you know, on Zoom and I liked him immediately, you know, and we didn't meet him in person until later on. We have been meeting on Zoom and recently starting to meet a little bit in person and we're hoping to have an office in july and so, you know, it's been an interesting time. I mean it's been kind of strange, but what the pandemic did make us realize that two things one is that people are reading more than ever, right, Which which is great um for the book industry as a whole, but also very hopeful for our own, you know, fledgling company, but also that our first book, Fox and I was being published at exactly the right time because that book is about...

...solitude. It's about being, you know, at one with nature, but also how to be alone and and what friendship, the power of friendship and why we need to connect. And that book seemed so perfect to us for this very moment. Um, in a way that we couldn't have anticipated before the pandemic. So that was another great thing. It was kind of interesting to try to raise money, you know, well during a pandemic. But the other great thing is that we saved so much money. You know, we didn't have to fly right, We didn't have to pay rent, we didn't have to fly to L. A. To meet with production companies. We didn't have to fly all over to present ourselves to potential investors. Um, we did it all over zoom and it was very efficient josh. You know what I was thinking about as soon as you started telling me about fox and I have people compared it to craw dads where the crowd had saying, is that, uh, that's not a bad thing, right? Not. And I always think of that book when I, you know, I read that book during the pandemic. So during the pandemic, I just started reading lots of books about being in nature. And, and I, my daughter had red card ads and and had left the book with us. You know when she, when she left. And, and I loved, I loved reading at those scenes about, you know, looking at feathers, are looking at we stones and rocks and, and weeds and that's what Kathy does also so beautifully. And um, you know, I think that that um Delia Owens is also a biologist. And so they seem very much in the same family to be. You know one is obviously fiction and one is nonfiction and they're they're different voices. But I do think that that resident that I think people are responding to that in where the crowded sing right? That that sense of being connected to nature. And we thought of my octopus teacher. Um you know there's lab girl H. Is for hawk. Helen Mcdonald is going to interview Kathy and one of her first um events which is going to be assumed for for Brooklyn bookstore. And we're very excited about that because we do think that that we all have to reexamine our relationship to nature at a time like this when you know wildfires were raging during the pandemic. And you know they play a role in Kathy's book too. It doesn't seem like the time and it doesn't hurt that Craw dads has not gone off the list and what, 2.5 3 years, Thank you for making that wonderful connection for us. Well I just think you know, I know during the pandemic people started gardening and they started birdwatching and they got curious about the world around them because they were you know, they were not in that work environment, they were not tied to uh an office somewhere. So I think the timing is great. Now tell me what's next after you launch the Fox not the Fox. Fox. And I and I'm sure there's a reason why it's not the Fox, right? Fox is his name. You know in a way she didn't have a name and she didn't want to name him but she referred to him as Fox and we all kind of talk about him as Fox with a capital f you know, It's so that's where the title comes from. She mentioned, you know, throughout the book she says Fox and I went on a walk or something. She does it better than that, but it seemed like the right title. But Um Julie do you want to talk about some of the upcoming projects? So, we are next list publishers in spring 2022, and we've got three books on that list. One is a is a is a novel that's also kind of pandemic inspired novel about connection and solitude and um oh and the other, the second book is uh it's a...

...slice of life from Leonard Cohen. Um and it's a little known chapter in the Leonard Cohen's life when uh the young skipper war broke out in Israel, he was living in Greece and was contemplating retiring from music and when the war broke out, he, like many others, felt pulled to travel to Israel and and was in a cafe in tel Aviv when some Israeli musicians recognized him and brought, found him a guitar and brought him to the front in the Sinai to play for the troops. And uh it's a short, an incredibly moving book about youth and war and um inspiration and and that experience kind of led to a rebirth for him. He went went back and Cindy Cindy is the Leonard Cohen super fan, but I will say that not being a super fan, I found the book incredibly uniquely stirring and uh and of course he didn't retire for music and went on and wrote, wrote to famous songs and went on to have this incredibly illustrious and and iconic career. Um it's a small book, has pictures and excerpts from his journal that were never published before. Um and it's kind of being published with the blessing of the Estate. And the third book we found Cindy and I got this proposal, said he got the proposal and we both were so excited when we read it. It's called imaginable and it's written by a futurist and a game designer, gaming designer who uses gaming strategies in in predicting and imagining the future that we want to live in. And it is, it's so engaging and it's so hurt to use her phrase urgently optimistic. It shows us the power that we have to create, the future that we want to live in to imagine it in in minute detail, which will then help bring it about and make us better prepared to live in that future. And it has broad application from the personal to the global um it's by a new york times bestselling writer named Jane McGonigal, Who is also a teacher and Cindy and I just connected with it right away, Jane actually in 2008 ran a simulation that predicted the behavior of the pandemic. The book is not really about that, but that Clearly is incredible credentials because she was able to predict all of the behavior that we all have experienced and lived out over the last year. And um, and it's kind of a great springboard into the material for the book. The future is in 10 years according to jane. So we have to start now in rye imagining that future and bringing about, well, it sounds to me like you've imagined an amazing future for Spiegel and Grau and we can look for Fox and I From Spiegel and Grau on July seven, is that right? I'm off by a day. Thank you so much Cindy and julie. We can't wait to get our hands on Fox and I and see what great things you have coming for us all as readers. Thank you mary. Kay, thank you. Thanks for being so supportive. Always. Thank you so much. Thank you for tuning in, join us every week on facebook or Youtube, where our live show airs every Wednesday night at seven p.m. Eastern time and please...

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