Friends & Fiction
Friends & Fiction

Episode · 3 months ago

WB S1E4: Mary Kay Andrews with Cindy Spiegel & Julie Grau

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Mary Kay Andrews interviews Cindy Spiegel & Julie Grau about their journeys in publishing culminating in the opening of their independant publishing company Spiegel & Grau

Welcome to the Friends and FictionWriter's Block podcast. Five new york times, bestselling novelists, endlessstories joined mary Kay andrews, Kristen, Harmel, Christie Woodson,harvey paddy, Callaghan, Henry and mary Alice Munro along with librarian RonBlock as novelists were five longtime Friends with more than 80 publishedbooks between us and I am Ron Block. Please join us for fascinating authorinterviews and insider talk about publishing and writing. If you lovebooks and are curious about the writing world, you're in the right place. Yeah,Friends and fiction is sponsored by Mama Geraldine's bodacious food. CathyCunningham was a successful but unfulfilled radio executive in Atlantaone night while sipping wine and snacking on expensive cheese straws,she realized her mama Geraldine's own cheese straw recipe is far superior.The idea for Cathy's company was born Mama Geraldine's cheese straws now comein six varieties and they are the best selling cheese straw in the UnitedStates plus the cookies are melt in your mouth, delicious yummy snacks anda woman owned empire. Now that is something that we here at Friends andfiction can get behind try them, you'll be so glad that you did get 20% off onyour online order at Mama Geraldine's dot com with the Code Fab five snack ony'all. Hi everyone, I'm mary Kay andrews. Today we're here to take apeek behind the curtain of the book publishing industry and I'm going to bechatting with publishing veterans julie Grau and Cindy Spiegel about the stateof the publishing business. You may not know this. But in the past decade, bookpublishing has seen waves of consolidation. Random house boughtpenguin harper Collins bought harlequin and Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Hachettebought perseus at the end of last year, America's largest publishing housepenguin. Random house announced plans to by Simon and Schuster the thirdlargest among the remaining so called Big Five. This move, which hastriggered antitrust concerns, would create a true mega publisher and itwould profoundly reshaped an industry that seems to becoming more and more ofa winner takes All Environment. Now, let's change tracks a little bit. Justweeks after this giant move was announced, publishing veterans CindySpiegel and julie growl revealed that they were starting up their own smallindependent publishing house. The timing was uncanny. Just as thepublishing world shifts toward Behemoth, they are launching a boutique and whodoesn't love a boutique as they prepare to publish the first Spiegel and Grautitle next week, we thought this would be a great time to talk to them aboutthe current publishing landscape and their place in it, julie Grau and CindySpiegel, our guests today, they are publishing veterans nearly threedecades ago, they started the Riverhead imprint where they published SuzieOrman and the Dalai Lama and such groundbreaking works as KhaledHosseini's the kite runner, James Mcbride's The Color of Water and junotDiaz debut story collection drown in 2000 and five. They were wooed away toRandom House to start their own imprint, also then called Spiegel and Grau wherethey published Suzie Orman. It's too early for me, jay Z The Beastie Boys.Trevor Noah Chelsea handler and the phenomenon called Orange is the NewBlack among many others. So welcome, Cindy and julie, thank you, thank you.Everything good, everything's great. Yeah, Cindy just flew in from the coastas we like to say. The first thing I wanted to ask you ladies because somany of our listeners come to this podcast as readers. I would love it ifyou would tell us about your first book...

...published under the new Spiegel andGrau, we would love to tell you about that. Um So our first book is a memoircalled Fox and I an uncommon friendship by a biologist named Catherine ravenWho is a solitary person. She left home at 15, had an unhappy childhood, whichshe doesn't talk about in the book. So it's a memoir, but it's not really herwhole life story. It's really it really focuses on her friendship with a wildfox whom she met in Montana. She noticed that the Fox started visitingher every day at her little property was very isolated at 4:15. So you know,she teaches online, she is she's a professor and she takes groups into thenational parks. She was a parks ranger for many years, but she doesn't havevisitors and she doesn't deal with people at all. So when the fox startedshowing up every day, she felt a kind of confusion and obligation to have aguest, you know to be a host to it and didn't know what to do. She doesn'teven really know how to talk to people as friends. And here was this visitorwho came every day. So she brought her camping chair out of her house, satdown very close to him and started reading the little prince to himbecause that was easier than talking. And the book Chronicles their four yearfriendship. It's really beautiful By the end, you really believe that theirfriends, she is a biologist. So she was very wary of giving him assigning him apersonality because as a biologist you're taught to not anthropomorphizedanimals. But when you read the book and in her real life, she understood thatthey were really friends. And that's our first book. It came to us in themost fortuitous manner. I met her about two years ago now at a writer'sconference, I wasn't working at the time, julie and I were planning, wewere plotting this, this new incarnation of Spiegel and Grau, but wehad no assurance that would get become a real company and I asked her to waitfor us and she did. And we we if you look at our logo, you'll see there's afox in the logo. Um you notice that and that is our origin story. That's anamazing one, Julia. Do you want to tell a little bit about all the great stuffthat's already happened for the Fox? And I it's made it onto many summerread lys kicking off with the new York Times Summer read list, which groupedthe books that they selected into different categories. And the firstcategory was I want to read the books that everyone will be talking aboutthis summer and Fox and I was part of that. So that was really exciting forus. But it's made it onto people um Buzzfeed. We just had an amazing reviewin the Wall Street Journal this weekend, which were so happy about and the bookgoes on sale in july six. So yeah, and it's also an indie next pick, An amazoneditor's pick, People magazine, best book of Summer on and on and on timeCurtis and Buzzfeed. What does it mean to you all have such a fortuitous buzzabout your first project right out of the gate? Well, I would say that itgives us a lot of confidence that we're on the right that what we're doingworks. So the reason that we left corporate publishing was that we feltthat it wasn't best serving our books. Corporate, you know, publishing can beamazing. They're, you know, they're they're big, they're strong and ifyou're the right book, they'll put all their forces behind you and and theycan create a best seller, if they determine, you know, if they decidethat a book should be a bestseller,...

...they'll put all their resources behindit and it will likely succeed. But if they don't put their resources behindit, the book gets lost. And the books that julie and I published tend to notbe obvious at all. You know, we always feel were either a little ahead of thecurve for maybe a lot to put two ahead of the curve, you know, sometimes, umwe like being first with with our books publishing books that we haven't seenbefore, books that strike us is really original and new. And so those are thebooks that aren't obvious even in the corporate structure. So the fact thatthis book which we're putting all of our resources behind is getting thekind of attention we thought it could get, you know, we believed it could getmeans that this smaller, the smaller um company with it was by small. I onlymean number of books, you know, I don't mean our ambitions um really can createbig books when julie and I are able to determine which books we want topublish, which books we want to put our resources behind and really push out tothe world. So this the attention that it's getting really shows us that wecan make a book without the corporate structure behind us. Yeah, I would canI add something to the thing I want to say that the other the other joy andalso strategy, business strategy that Cindy and I have had in starting thiscompany as an independent is to reconnect with independent booksellersand you know, your readers who are who are avid and dedicated readers alsoknow that that their local independent bookseller co. Is an incrediblypowerful force in in what in determining what people read and theiradvocacy means everything. And Cindy and I you said you called us veteranslike three times in the introduction. So I don't want to say that we'reveterans because it makes us sound old, but we do have long we do have longrelationships with, we're not Newton's, we're not movies. And that wassomething else that had gotten lost in the in the shuffle. And then the scaleof of us working in a big house is that um you know, by necessity, becausethere's so many books and there's this massive sales department, the editorsand publishers are often kind of out of the equation when it comes tocommunicating with booksellers Cindy and I started as an independent so thatwe could reconnect with the power of these booksellers and their advocacy.And we made a concerted effort as part of our launch and as part of the launchof this book to get it into the hands of independent booksellers and tocapitalize on the long memories and the goodwill that we felt from thiscommunity. So that's that's been another kind of proof of concept thatwe've had. And I think I think what julie is also referring to is the wallthat goes up in the big houses between sales and editorial. Right? When when Istarted as a young editor at a tiny imprint called Tickner and Fields,which was part of Houghton Mifflin, I dealt directly with my sales force. Youknow, I presented at sales conference, I had, you know, there were sales repsthat I liked a lot or who liked me and we had a special relationship and youcould turn to them when you wanted, you know, you have questions or you wantedan advocate. And then when we were publishers at Riverhead, of course wehad very strong relationships with our sales force. But when we got to RandomHouse and as Random House merged with penguin and the houses got bigger andbigger, that wall became higher and higher. And by the end, even aspublishers, we really didn't have a direct relationship with sales andcertainly not with our with our sales...

...reps. And we as an independentpublisher are working within grams two rivers as our distribution company. Andthey are partners with us. You know, we call them directly, Their reps are intouch with us. It feels so much more old fashioned. And I'd like to say, youknow, in addition to the support from the Indies, we also feel great supportfrom amazon and from Barnes and Noble who have been amazing in in thisprocess. And I think it's a lot of it is that we can just have thatrelationship with our sales team. And so in some way, the company feels veryold fashioned and it also feels forward looking. You know, I think it's forthis time, it's the right kind of moment when you need things to becomemore personal and you need to feel that editorial passion and advocacy. Yeah,we're going to talk a little bit more about that because you guys have gotsome exciting kinds of things that you are starting off with right away. Tellme about when you were talking about the first book that you would put out.Okay, so Cindy already said that you'd asked um the author of Fox and I towait on you, did you have anything else up your sleeve or did you think, ohmemoir, that's what we want to do right away now, we just know when the rightbook comes along, we have, we can identify it and the book gave us thebook, gave us purpose, it gave us something to work towards, We had topublish the book, we wanted to publish the book and put it out in the worldand and so it's been incredibly helpful for us to to be able to kind of blazethe pathway and build the infrastructure to publish this one bookas we launched the company and the other project that we did have though,we had another project that it wasn't a book we brought. We have a podcast thatwe're lunching in october, were co producing with Lemonade a Media. Andthis came from one of our authors from the old Spiegel and Grau who is areporter who was reporting a story on domestic violence, which she told meabout over lunch, you know, just as a social as in a social lunch. And werealized that this was a podcast. One of the things about our new companythat julie and I recognized early on is that storytelling is broader than justbooks and this is a moment when everybody is very hungry for stories.So we decided when you know if you could create a publishing company fromthe ground up at this moment, what would it look like? And we thought youknow what it would be about stories, it wouldn't be limited to format. And weare calling ourselves a multimedia company. And it was very exciting thatwe had a podcast to start Also, you know, we have someone on our team,works in film and television. She sells books to film and television and we'restood in finding all sorts of ways to tell stories. So yes, we had one bookand then we soon later, you know, had one podcast And we now have 11 booksunder contract. So we're feeling very good about this whole concept and veryexcited. We're getting the kinds of books that we were hoping for. Theseare books that we have one at auction from The Big Five, which makes us veryproud. But also suggests that we're onto something, you know, that writersand authors understand that they weren't being served at the big house.They can get lost so easily in the big house. You can do really well at a bighouse but you can get lost and I think there needs to be another kind of modelthat's smaller. That really only takes the books on that. We actually want topublish that. We want to put our efforts behind. How big is your listgoing to be, do you think, have you, have you map that out? We're going topublish 15-20 titles a year. That's...

...kind of what we've determined based onour experience is our sweet spot. It's the right amount of titles to be ableto devote the kind of attention that we want to teach one to publish. And bycontrast, what would one of the big houses, one of the big five houses?What, how many titles would they publish in a year? Well, give our uhimprint like, I don't even know Cindy. Do you imprint like? Random houseprobably publishes about 250 titles a year. It's my guess. I don't know.That's kind of a guest, you know, I imagine that when you work in a majorcorporation there are so many chiefs, so many indians, so many departments.They handle all the minutia of all aspects of the business, some that youmight never have needed to know when you were editing and publishing whenyou're running your own shop. I guess you have to have your hands andeverything. Are you learning as you go? And do each of you have a specialty?Does Do you both at it? Do you both acquire? How does that work? Uh we weare kind of intuitively complimentary Cindy and and and I and I think that'sevolved over the 25 plus years that we've worked together. We both at it.We're both very hands on as editors go. And we have hired editors who editsimilarly to us two. And and that's, you know, that's that's paramount forus. And and you know, as Cindy said before, part of our concept of startingthis was too, was old fashioned in some ways, but forward looking in others.And the old fashioned part is to is to reassert the the importance of theauthor editor relationship. So yes, we're hands on and and we are veryattentive to details and we're not afraid to get elbow deep in amanuscript in terms of, in terms of how we divide the labors, there's somethings that, you know, two heads are better than one and there's some thingsthat One of us will just take it and the other one we'll take something else.Like I said, it's it's a kind of uh intuitive choreography, I think that wehave at this point. Yeah, we've been doing it for so long I think, but Ithink that other people catch on quickly, you know, when they get towitness. The other thing I'll say is that yes, we're learning all the time.There's so many things we didn't know, you know, so many systems things, wenever had to worry about. How do you do get a bar code for the back of yourbook? You know? There are so many things that we've caught at the lastmoment, but we're learning and we've caught them all luckily. Um we alsohave a team, you know, we're a team of eight people right now. We have a C. 00who we worked with at Riverhead and who's amazing and she's the one who islearning the most, you know, because she's figuring out all the systemsstuff that Julian I never did before. But we have a lot of great partners,you know, this is not just about what we know, but we have partnerships sothat ingram will help us with keywords and data and you know how to do umamazon advertising, you know, we have resources to go to when we don't knowsomething and it's that's part of the joy of creating this from the ground upis that we're learning so much and we're starting to understand even whatwe did before in a totally new way. So it's been exciting and fun andchallenging at times, but but we're learning every day. That's great. Talkto me about getting your brand name back. What did it mean to you all toreclaim Spiegel and Grau and did you have a backup name planned if youcouldn't get it back? Because um, I don't know if our listeners understandintellectual property is a real thing. And um, so talk about that a little bitif you would. The brilliant thing is that we knew we could get it backbecause when we started Spiegel and...

Grau, our lawyer, because it was ournames told us we needed to own our names and it wasn't in our initialagreement when we first went to random has that we owned the name? So we wereaware that we could get it back and that has been so important to usbecause it is our brand and we're starting with a known recognizablebrand so that we feel that we felt that was very powerful and we, we didn'twant to change the name. The name was part of what we felt would attractinvestors, attract writers, make us not seem new, you know, because we're not,you know, we've been working together for so long and and it gives us a realrecognizable jumping off place. Yeah. It allowed us to build on what we did.I would just also say that that payment random house was actually very, verygood about the that transition and and allowing us to take back the name. Didyou ever think about after, after you left about going separate ways,starting up different things? And and by the way, what's the secret sauce forthis decades long collaboration? Like we didn't know about going separateways. We didn't mean we kind of why would we we um, we talked to everybodywe talked to, we talked to other big publishers. We talked individually, Wetalked together. You know, we, the secret sauce is trust. The secret sauceis common standards and values. And you know, I always for years back datingback to Riverhead, thought if I had, if I were a writer, I would want Cindy tobe my editor. I would imagine we better editor in the business of advocate. Soyou know, I mean it has to start from from trust and mutual respect. Weactually edit each other. So I just return the compliment because um, youknow, so many things that I send out to people are edited by julie. Um, so, youknow, I I do think that there is something a little bit magical aboutthe way we work together. That is the reason that we've stayed together forso long and I don't really, you know, I can't define what it is, but we bothhad many opportunities to go in separate directions. And when we leftrandom House, we just looked at each other and knew that we were going tostay together, good for you. You know, most of the big houses have men in thetop roles, I think what of course the biggest house does have a woman at thetop? Right? Yes. Yeah. But most of them, four out of the five houses have men atthe top. What does it mean to you as women to be running your own show? It'sIt feels like a culmination of, you know, 30 years of hard work andpublishing. And it feels liberating and empowering and a little there's alittle bit of trepidation in the mix because we so want this to succeed forall sorts of reasons, but it's also kind of refreshing and wonderful thatwe actually don't have to think about ourselves as women in a corporatestructure. We're just we're just uh founders and we're free to kind offocus on the business and focus on the books. And we're kind of politics freeat this, at this level and at this cohesive group of ours. Yeah. The keyfor us is the autonomy. You know, the the key is that we get to decide whatour priorities are and by this time in our career, we feel that we've earnedthat, right, and that our track record is it bears that out. And it's, youknow, could be very frustrating when we...

...would have a vision for a book. I mean,that is what our talent is, right. It's identifying the books that we thinkpeople want to read. And after all these years, we've identified so manybooks that have gone on to prove us right. That it it's frustrating whenyou have to continually convinced people every single time that, you know,they should pay attention to your book when we have our own company. We weknow what we're putting our money behind because it's our money and we'vedecided to spend it, right? Yeah. Yeah. Tell us about your team. How big is it?And how did you go about building it? I looked at your website and saw, Ithought it was really interesting that instead of having just boring photos,you had like drawings right of your team. Is that right? Yeah. We had, thatwas kind of an aesthetic choice. Um, we're we are a team of nine. We asCindy mentioned R colo, Jackie Shetty. We worked with years ago when we werestarting Riverhead and she was the assistant to the president of thecompany. And we always loved Jackie and thought she was eminently capable anduh, so we knew that we wanted to reconnect with her and she has awonderfully, she complements our skill set in terrific ways and also she hadgone on to do a lot of amazing things within penguin. She, she was thefounder of the speakers bureau, which was the first speakers bureau at anypublishing house. She went on to work in emerging markets. She worked atpenguin press in the UK. So it wasn't as if she had done a lot. She was likea kind of Jack of all trades, right, who seemed very entrepreneurial to us,which is the kind of person that we were looking for. Yes and AMY Match weknew as our colleague at Penguin Random House Audio. She'd been a penguin,Random House audio building, that business over 18 years and we werethrilled to be able to reconnect with her and have her join us and anddevelop our audio program Sam Nicholson, I'm gonna zag over to SAm sam work downthe hall from us. He had started out at Random House, Susan Kamel who was abeloved publisher, Random House as her assistant and then built his list andbecame an editor at Random House and Cindy and I always admired how hardworking he was. And also this word will keep coming up entrepreneurial onbehalf of his books and as I said earlier, we like the way he edits, weknew that he was not afraid to get into a kind of thorny manuscript and andwork through it and worked very intensively with his writers. Sam alsois one of these people who is blessed to be a connector. And Sam suggestedthat we meet Lizza Wachter, who was kind of amazing that we hadn't knownLizza all these years. Lizza and her partner, Sylvie Rapinoe had started akind of the premier book to screen agency and built that company over 16years and sold it to to W me um and Eliza was not a corporate type eitherand was working as a in a managerial capacity with some of the writers andmissed the Daily Connection. And um we met her in a perfect moment and shejoined our team because that's as we said earlier, like we we see publishingin a more expansive way and and part of that necessarily has to be the film andtv piece because it's so much a part of the spectrum of expression and um andso it's amazing for us to have Lizza onboard from from day one from beforeeven acquisitions, she's she's among...

...our team of readers and uh Jackieintroduced us to Sarah kim who's our digital director. Sarah had worked inthe publisher's office at Crown and then went to grad school and got adegree in digital design for learning. And Sarah also is this amazing, reallyquick study and has a skill set digitally and is able to create stuff.And she is running managing our social media presence, our website digitalmarketing and she's she's an amazing kind of secret weapon that we have. Samalso introduced us to erin Robertson who was a young editor at a literarymagazine called lit Hobbit Online magazine. He's a translator, he's ajournalist, he's incredibly accomplished and very young um and awriter himself and he's an editor that we've hired. And uh Natalie Wilsonprovides administrative support, working with Liza on the West coast andwho have I I left anyone out. No, that's that's who we are. And you know,just to answer your question, as julie said, we we never went out looking foranybody. You know, everybody came to us kind of organically where while we werebuilding the business, we connected with someone or realized that someonewas available that we knew already started having conversations. It allhappened very organically, as did the business itself. You know, the businessthat's what's been so fun about it and also makes us feel that it's going theway it was supposed to go because it's all happened organically naturally. Umit feels right. You know, every piece that we, you know, it's funny, it'skind of funny. Um every time we think so we need something, we need someoneto help us with. Sales are, you know, our sales director, wonderful salesdirector at ingram, Retired Medi Goldberg, and he's consulting with usnow. So we have you know we found the pieces of the puzzle seemed to presentthemselves when we need them so far. So far so good. And um yeah we were I haveto think that word is out that you're good people to work with or peoplewouldn't be coming to you. I hope so. So tell me tell me what it's like tolaunch a business in the middle of a pandemic. Have you all been able tohave any person? The great thing about lunching under in a pandemic is that wework under the radar right? You know that publishing is such a gossipysocial industry and it would have been impossible for us not to run into oldfriends or have conversations and and feel that it was getting away from usin some way. You know, we didn't want we wanted to do it quietly and to putthe pieces together in the proper way. And so, um we were able to do thatunder the cover of the pandemic. Um we luckily had met almost everybody beforethe pandemic, except for Aaron Aaron we met on online, you know, on Zoom and Iliked him immediately, you know, and we didn't meet him in person until lateron. We have been meeting on Zoom and recently starting to meet a little bitin person and we're hoping to have an office in july and so, you know, it'sbeen an interesting time. I mean it's been kind of strange, but what thepandemic did make us realize that two things one is that people are readingmore than ever, right, Which which is great um for the book industry as awhole, but also very hopeful for our own, you know, fledgling company, butalso that our first book, Fox and I was being published at exactly the righttime because that book is about...

...solitude. It's about being, you know,at one with nature, but also how to be alone and and what friendship, thepower of friendship and why we need to connect. And that book seemed soperfect to us for this very moment. Um, in a way that we couldn't haveanticipated before the pandemic. So that was another great thing. It waskind of interesting to try to raise money, you know, well during a pandemic.But the other great thing is that we saved so much money. You know, wedidn't have to fly right, We didn't have to pay rent, we didn't have to flyto L. A. To meet with production companies. We didn't have to fly allover to present ourselves to potential investors. Um, we did it all over zoomand it was very efficient josh. You know what I was thinkingabout as soon as you started telling me about fox and I have people compared itto craw dads where the crowd had saying, is that, uh, that's not a bad thing,right? Not. And I always think of that book when I, you know, I read that bookduring the pandemic. So during the pandemic, I just started reading lotsof books about being in nature. And, and I, my daughter had red card ads andand had left the book with us. You know when she, when she left. And, and Iloved, I loved reading at those scenes about, you know, looking at feathers,are looking at we stones and rocks and, and weeds and that's what Kathy doesalso so beautifully. And um, you know, I think that that um Delia Owens isalso a biologist. And so they seem very much in the same family to be. You knowone is obviously fiction and one is nonfiction and they're they'redifferent voices. But I do think that that resident that I think people areresponding to that in where the crowded sing right? That that sense of beingconnected to nature. And we thought of my octopus teacher. Um you know there'slab girl H. Is for hawk. Helen Mcdonald is going to interview Kathy and one ofher first um events which is going to be assumed for for Brooklyn bookstore.And we're very excited about that because we do think that that we allhave to reexamine our relationship to nature at a time like this when youknow wildfires were raging during the pandemic. And you know they play a rolein Kathy's book too. It doesn't seem like the time and it doesn't hurt thatCraw dads has not gone off the list and what, 2.5 3 years, Thank you for makingthat wonderful connection for us. Well I just think you know, I know duringthe pandemic people started gardening and they started birdwatching and theygot curious about the world around them because they were you know, they werenot in that work environment, they were not tied to uh an office somewhere. SoI think the timing is great. Now tell me what's next after you launch the Foxnot the Fox. Fox. And I and I'm sure there's a reason why it's not the Fox,right? Fox is his name. You know in a way she didn't have a name and shedidn't want to name him but she referred to him as Fox and we all kindof talk about him as Fox with a capital f you know, It's so that's where thetitle comes from. She mentioned, you know, throughout the book she says Foxand I went on a walk or something. She does it better than that, but it seemedlike the right title. But Um Julie do you want to talk about some of theupcoming projects? So, we are next list publishers in spring 2022, and we'vegot three books on that list. One is a is a is a novel that's also kind ofpandemic inspired novel about connection and solitude and um oh andthe other, the second book is uh it's a...

...slice of life from Leonard Cohen. Umand it's a little known chapter in the Leonard Cohen's life when uh the youngskipper war broke out in Israel, he was living in Greece and was contemplatingretiring from music and when the war broke out, he, like many others, feltpulled to travel to Israel and and was in a cafe in tel Aviv when some Israelimusicians recognized him and brought, found him a guitar and brought him tothe front in the Sinai to play for the troops. And uh it's a short, anincredibly moving book about youth and war and um inspiration and and thatexperience kind of led to a rebirth for him. He went went back and Cindy Cindyis the Leonard Cohen super fan, but I will say that not being a super fan, Ifound the book incredibly uniquely stirring and uh and of course he didn'tretire for music and went on and wrote, wrote to famous songs and went on tohave this incredibly illustrious and and iconic career. Um it's a small book,has pictures and excerpts from his journal that were never publishedbefore. Um and it's kind of being published with the blessing of theEstate. And the third book we found Cindy and I got this proposal, said hegot the proposal and we both were so excited when we read it. It's calledimaginable and it's written by a futurist and a game designer, gamingdesigner who uses gaming strategies in in predicting and imagining the futurethat we want to live in. And it is, it's so engaging and it's so hurt touse her phrase urgently optimistic. It shows us the power that we have tocreate, the future that we want to live in to imagine it in in minute detail,which will then help bring it about and make us better prepared to live in thatfuture. And it has broad application from the personal to the global um it'sby a new york times bestselling writer named Jane McGonigal, Who is also ateacher and Cindy and I just connected with it right away, Jane actually in2008 ran a simulation that predicted the behavior of the pandemic. The bookis not really about that, but that Clearly is incredible credentialsbecause she was able to predict all of the behavior that we all haveexperienced and lived out over the last year. And um, and it's kind of a greatspringboard into the material for the book. The future is in 10 yearsaccording to jane. So we have to start now in rye imagining that future andbringing about, well, it sounds to me like you've imagined an amazing futurefor Spiegel and Grau and we can look for Fox and I From Spiegel and Grau onJuly seven, is that right? I'm off by a day. Thank you so much Cindy and julie.We can't wait to get our hands on Fox and I and see what great things youhave coming for us all as readers. Thank you mary. Kay, thank you. Thanksfor being so supportive. Always. Thank you so much. Thank you for tuning in, join us everyweek on facebook or Youtube, where our live show airs every Wednesday night atseven p.m. Eastern time and please...

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