Friends & Fiction
Friends & Fiction

Episode · 2 months ago

WB-S2E39 Less is Lost with Andrew Sean Greer

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

WRITERS' BLOCK Ron Block and Kristy Woodson Harvey talk with Pulitzer Prize winning author Andrew Sean Greer about his newest book, Less Is Lost which is a follow-up to his hugely popular Less.

Someone had said Pulitzer and I don't even know when that happens. Now I know it's tap like king, but I didn't know before what time of year. So I called him up and I said what happened, and he said and he won the Pulletzer Prize, and I said did I, and he said, am I the one telling you? And he was. Welcome to the friends and fiction writer's block podcast For New York Times bestselling authors, one rock star Librarian and endless stories joined Mary Kay, Andrews, Kristin Harmel, Kristy Woodson Harvey and Patty Callahan Henry, along with Ron Block as novelists. We are four longtime friends with seventy books between us, and I am block. Please join us for fascinating author interviews and insider talk about publishing and writing. If you love books and are curious about the writing world, you are in the right place. Welcome. This week's episode is one that we have truly been looking forward to. We are in awe of our guests. In his work and the many literary gifts that he's given us readers and created iconic characters that stay with the readers for a very long time. It's certainly a highlight to be welcoming Andrew Shaun greer to the podcast. His newest book, less is lost, is out this week and my favorite praise of the book comes from none other than Bonnie garments, author of the outstanding lessons in Chemistry. She says there is no better guide across America than Arthur less, the bad gay who's engaging awkwardness and self deprecation are tragically funny and hugely inside full. We should all be so lost, and I certain Nick Green, and I am Ron Block and I am Christy Woodson Harvey. Andrew Shawn Greer is the author of seven works of fiction. GREER has taught at a number of universities, including Stanford and the Iowa Writer's workshop, and in today's show pick a New York Public Library Coleman Center fellow, a judge for the National Book Award and a winner of the California Book Award and The New York Public Library Young Lions Award. He is the recipient of an n e a grant, a Goggenheim Fellowship and the two thousand eighteen pulitzer prized for fiction. Hasn't done that much, but I'm glad okay, but he lives in San Francisco and Milan. So welcome to the PODCAST, Andrew. Thank you, guys for having me. What a great intro. I'M gonna get my mom to listen to this. Well, that's that's the highest praise. INDEEDS, your mom must be really proud, because wow, that is that is a lot. That is a lot of awards and amazing, amazing accolades. Okay, Ron,...

...can I fan girl before we do questions, or do you want me to wait? I'll fight you for it. No, I have to tell you. So I got an advanced copy of less. I don't even know how, like you know, and I guess two thousand and sixteen or so, and I was just obsessed with it. Like everywhere I went I was talking about I was like, you, guys, spooks, books Spook so amazing. This book is so amazing to the point that I actually like referred to it in one of my books because I loved it so much. And so when it won the Pulitzer Prize, I was like, I knew it. I mean I knew it, I knew it was going to I just knew it. So I've been a fan for a long time. and Um. Anyway, it's a great book and we were so glad to see more of Arthur less ron an hour. We're pretty pumped about absolutely. Yeah, there's a lot of texting going on there, back and forth. Did you get to this part? So Anyway, Andrew, what inspired you to return to one of Literature's most beloved characters? Aren't there less and my fan girl moment is like he's absolutely my total literary crush. I love hearing that. Well, I have to tell you I had not planned to and and in fact my agent, after I won the Pulitzer Prize, she said, no, don't think about writing a sequel. She reads mind and I was like no, no, of course not, no, no, and I was. I was writing another novel with other characters, and it was, as often happens, when I started novel it was it was a disaster about a hundred pages in. I know if a novel was not working and I have to find another narrator, another way to tell it happened with less and I was like, if if only I had a pre made ridiculous protagonist and elderly, grumpy old writer, I could send in a van somewhere, because I was kind of what the book was and I was like, why am I being so hard of myself? You know, why don't I write what I want to? So I I wrote my agent and I said, I'm starting to say it is a sequel, it's a follow up, and I just did what I wanted because I think I wasn't done writing as about this character, with this narrator. It seemed like a really good way for me to get to talk about something really hard, which was America, traveling across America, Um, and all my thoughts about it. Oh, definitely. And I've heard from other writers that sometimes a character just doesn't let you go, even though you kind of think you're done with them, and they kind of keep knocking in your head and moving around. And there that was what kind of this was going on to. Yeah, I mean in a smaller way, when you're writing a book and there's a character who shows up who's just a joy to have on the page, you have to admit that that character has a larger role than you planned, and that was this in a larger way. Nice. So how much of Arthur is you? Well, I guess I'm wearing a blue suit. I hadn't thought about that. I will say I don't think of him as me, but I definitely use many parts of my life to to to populate his. But I redistribute things in a...

...way that anyone would recognize if they know a writer. It doesn't make sense that that Christmas trees in that person's house, you know. Um. So I separate myself from him. He has, he has my best and worst qualities, I would say. I think he's much more innocent and vulnerable and sweet than I am, and I think he's therefore also much more egotistical and blinded to his faults than I am. Definitely that's a great summation there. So I am one of those people who often finds things really hilarious at really inappropriate times, and I think there are probably a lot of us like that out there, and that was certainly the case in this novel too. So I was actually like in the waiting room waiting for a doctor's appointment and reading about the okay corral and like laughing out loud about movement of like real humor. You know, this really kind of dark and depressing sort of time, but I think that's one of your real gifts, is that you can inject such comedy and these sort of hilarious moments into the tragic happenings of your stories, in your character's life. So can you talk about that a little bit? Is that something that you set out to do? Does it just happen? Is it the voice of the character, like, how does that come together for you? Well, it's it's just a reversal of what I used to do as a much more serious writer, you know, carry a notebook and make notes. But I was at the funeral of a father, of a dear friend, and I was the sort of chabast boy who cleaned all the plates and put, you know, put the casseroles in the heat up while they were sitting Shiva, and so I took notes because it was also hilarious what was happening around me and I was I was aware of the necessity of something like a funeral, which is how lessons lost opens, that the extreme tension of it causes you to burst into laughter sometimes because it's unsustainable. And certainly my my friend, her brother got locked in the bathroom during the prayers and was texting. You know, none of that is in this book, but the sense that you have to have a funny story to tell about something serious, or else you'll never sort of process it is is something I'm familiar with and so that's what I do. I try to make a funny story it's not about something awful, and there's some awful memories of mine I put in here to see if I could reverse. We can talk about I love it because it made me laugh at in the far dist in past. It was a wedding with a friend and it was a Russian Orthodox wedding and so they brought out the crowns to put on their heads and I thought all I could think of was that old margarine commercial, and I looked at my friend next to me and it was exactly boom. We were. We lost it, we were done so well. In fact, it was at that...

...funeral that I gave a handkerchief to a woman crying and I thought, Oh, there goes my handkerchief. I never get that back to I okay, Oh yeah. So so personally I found both Arthur books a kindred spirit really trying to find our place in the world. I find myself again laughing. I don't want to give away too many spoilers because I think it's like for readers. To happen on those is just phenomenal and even crying it parts too. But what's what's been the strong reactions from your readers, good and the bad? Well, not many people have read less. It's lost yet or have contacted me about it on social media. But less, I was shocked. Still every day I get a message from someone saying that they were at some crossroads in their life, usually much younger, not someone turning fifty, but someone turning twenty five, which I think is a crisis. Apparently, Um, I don't remember it, but I think it is. So you don't think I haven't done enough. I'm supposed being a don't a huge one. Yeah, was thirty. Forty was the hard hardest one for me. Fifty was fine. I wrote a novel about it and wrote a pull urprise. I was like, fifty is great, forty was robbed. Sixties going to be its own thing, but I'll be fine. But but everyone at some point that they feel lonely without a partner, that they haven't achieved up. You know, all of these things that are are very familiar to us all, and that the book gave them a sense of hope or or a joy about the future. That's great to hear. You know, that's actually such a great segue into my question, because I think we live in this world that's always encouraging us to kind of find ourselves, which I think is really kind of what you're speaking to and what your readers probably recognize about this novel. But you know, we're supposed to be setting me goals and dreaming bigger and scheduling tighter and getting more done, and I think in a lot of ways, less is lost is kind of an antidote to that sort of thinking. Um and in fact this was this was wrong. This is a wrong quote, so I'm not going to steal this, but he said the tagline might be go get lost somewhere. It always does you good, and we were like yes, tagline. Is this a lesson that you've had to learn in your own life? Is that something that you injected into this book? That's a great question. Yeah, absolutely. I am a big planner, raised by planners, by experimental chemists, you know, very my calendar I put everything, not just you guys, but that I'm going afterwards to buy a text with a friend. Is All in my calendar. Not Room to get lost, but but I have learned it's the best way, especially when I was been a travel writer for a while. I have certainly learned that and told friends when they're having some priss I'm like, this moment of trouble in your trip is the thing you will remember. You will remember how you overcame it and that's the story you'll tell about the trip, not the...

...the Duomo in Florence, but but your own story. So I have a glass of champagne. Conquer it, you know, take the bus the wrong you took the wrong bus, so follow it where it goes, and I tried to do that, even though I was raised the other way. I love them set off on an adventure. I don't know if I could do that, though. It's tough. I remember once at a at a at a festival I was I was picking up a friend to drive back from it and someone had dozed her Kool Aig with LSD and she was super high and I was like, oh no, what she had come down from it. She but she missed most of the festival, which is like a disaster right, and I said what are are you mad about it? She's like, oh no, honey, you got to ride the trip you're on. I had a great time. She said, what can you do? You're on LSC. You've got to just do that. You're not going to the festival anymore, you're doing this, and she just went with it, and I thought, I wish I could be like yeah, me too. I had twins that are just like yeah, whatever, like we were going, we're supposed to be on this trip abroad, like right before when we knew the pandemic was coming, and I just couldn't go, like I just couldn't do it, and I remember calling my friend like in the middle of the nightning like you have got to get out right now. They're gonna you know, you're gonna be there forever, and she's like well, if we are, we'll have a great time, and I'm like, I just have none of that. I have none of that and I want that. So maybe I'll find it one day, maybe my next decade. Yeah, I recommend a Benzo diaze him or a cocktail will get you in a better yeah. Yeah, be careful, Christie, next time we're together. It might do you. No, no, I mentioned drugs anyway. So one of the things that I love, and the readers everywhere. In love about your writing is how observational it is. I fell in love with the story of a marriage. I mean that was the first him I kind of was exposed and even though it's a different kind of story, I think some some things transcend through your work, which is all very different, time travel and things, but now we're talking about less today. But Arthur always seems to not quite have a clue and he's completely kind of unaware of the effect he has on others around him, and the narrator really kind of shows us that other side of that. Can you talk about creating him and creating this aspect of his personality? Well, I mean it took a little while, but it was because I went the wrong way at first and lass and then I found this character who could be so guileless that in fact he was immune to a lot of things that would bother the rest of us. And then he's bothered by things that wouldn't bother the rest of us and it's his sort of strength, of his innocence that carries him through. Rather than than a fall from innocence, it's a recommitment to it in a way in each book, and I also...

I loved writing as a narrator who, I think, because of that innocence, because he's so sensitive, without skin, he's paying attention to everything around him, which is a writer's state, when we're in a good mood or in an attentive mood Um, and that's it's a difficult way to be, but it's also joyous. It's ecstatic state of being. I know that sounds grand for Arthur lesson's state of being, but he pays attention to every single thing and sees it in some new way and I found that really appealing and I think you're right. And the story of the marriage was about paying attention to my historical details and thinking of them as real and trying to hold and feel them instead of his history. And I felt the same way about the travel notes that I took, because everything in the book, My rule is always that I have to I can only put in details that I wrote down in my notebook when I traveled, because I don't want to invent something about a foreign place like mississipp be, because then I'd go into some cliche or fantasy or you know, I want to write down what was really there. M Oh, that comes across to it really does. Oh good, oh my gosh, I love that. That is yeah, it really does. I mean it does really help create that sense of place. That's that's really really interesting. Little tipit there. Maybe I should start doing that. So so much of this book is about the many different facets of love and you pose the question what is love? So can you talk about the exploration of that throughout the novel? Well, I don't have an answer for it. If that's what you one thing, that's why we plain it to us, so that we can just like, we can put that out of our minds and we don't have to worry about that anymore. I don't it, but I have, like many people, but not all writers, I'm I'm I'm really interested in varieties of love and if it less, it was it was partnerships and or hookups or long term relationships, are short term ones. This one is much more about family love. His his sisters, and this one we have memories of his mother and his father is a sort of mysterious character in it. And but overarching it all is sort of after the happy ending love of you know, after the wedding, after the coming back together, how do you go on? Um What are the new challenges there? And do you give up once the the fire goes out a little? Ye, you. You follow that so beautifully and I really the facets is the perfect word, because we see love in all these different forms throughout the book. It is like go this, of this, of this. It's really, really hugely successful. I'm so glad. I'm glad to hear that. And I really wanted this time to give Freddie more time and because it seemed waited...

...towards towards lessons in the title of the book, You know, but I thought that's not how a relationship works. It's got to be equal. No, his his narration is just so good. Good you have you've been publishing for a while, but since you started publishing, and probably well before that, a lot of things that you've written, the world view towards homosexuality is really evolved and and it really had met with resistance and and and I think we're kind of in another era of some trouble there. But can you share how your work might have also changed with it? And Kudos to you for not putting in any stereotypes. That's a tough thing to do. It is a tough thing to do. I think it's why I resisted so long having a straightforward gayme mail character, because it's it's easy to fall into cliches or stereotypes of all the wonderful books that have been written before. But of course every time we have to do something brand new, and I found it hard to do also, I was writing like time travel books and aging backwards books, and to also be gay just seemed like I couldn't do it at all. But I will say when I started out there was a backlash in the nineties after the AIDS pandemic, where there were all these these gay publishing houses that were attached to the big houses and readers suddenly didn't want to read that stuff and they all closed down. And there was a time right when I was beginning to publish, where the general advice was don't tell people you're gay, don't write anything gay because it will go in the gay section of the bookstore and no one else will ever read it and you won't get published in the New York you know, like there were there were, you know, esquire refused to publish a gay story and and people were fired over it. This is in the early nineties, like it was not the time. So that's how I started writing. But it's certainly different now and I think it's this amazing time where a like less. I would never have thought that like a gay love story would feel general to the population. Of course it makes sense. I learned about love from Marquez. You know that the those are those are heterosexuals in love and love in the time of cholera, but I got it. I mean it's the same lesson. And so what I hear from readers is that they don't have that barrier to it anymore, certainly young readers. They connect immediately with these characters and it feels like a human condition and that's really touching and it's great, it really is and and it's so great for young gay people to see themselves in a book. You know that that is so widely read and accepted and things. So it's just a kind of a whole change in the world view. And the least last thing I expected was that I would become some sort of literary celebrity. But I get like recognized. You know, I'll be a pool party in Palm Springs and...

I'll be recognized, which authors don't get recognized much because we don't look like our book, Our author photo. So I was like, I think I'm like a, like, a, like a for at the moment, a literate gang celebrity. That well, cool. That's the best compliment ever when someone says, oh my Gosh, you look just like your author photo. Really, Oh, that's nice, isn't it? I really don't but thank you for saying that. No, that is that's really awesome. Um, you made that sound really glamorous, like Pool Party in Palm Springs, and well, it's a pool. I don't know how much more glamorous it is than a pool. Well, switching gears just a little, you are the master of assimile and readers need to read for themselves. For for the examples, but Um, one example, you compare driving the van, unless is lost, to operating a Martini Shaker, which is just does this come naturally to you while you're writing, or is it something you have to back up and think about a little bit? I think both. I think I have many faults as a writer, but that one one strength is that I do have a sort of a similar headspace that I go to. But then I am tough on myself. I try to think of not the first or second or third, but the you know, and one the least likely one, which in my other books sometimes could get on the edge of of of odd. But in unless I can go for the most outrageous similar and it's it's the funniest one. So, you know, often when I'm teaching I will tell them you have to think past you know, you have to get past cliche to something fresh. You have to get the reader to to to recognize it um and that's hard to do. But another thing is too. I actually have driven a few of those west failure w vans from the from the sixties and seventies, and that it's not an easy Ke. Have you've driven those? Came from a very real place. I could drive a tractor, but that's about it. That's pretty good. I've never done that. So that I can't drive attractor. No, I mean I probably could. I don't know. I've never tried, but maybe now I should add that to my list of things to do. An automatic attractor. Well, they are now, they are now, but they yeah, I can drive like shift. That was part of my like it was one of the rules of my house growing up, is that you couldn't I couldn't like go on dates until like drive stick shift because, you know, you never knew if you'd have to drive yourself home. That's what my mom I said. I mean, I think that's good advice. Don't depend on an even else for the drive home. Yeah, that's actually smart, smart. So you touched on this a little bit about driving the ends, but you write so wonderfully. One...

...of the other things, and I almost think like each of these things is its own character, but you write so well about place, like you really draw the reader into see exactly what your main character is seeing in the place and the people and the people, all the characters that come through. It's just unbelievable. But how do you research those and where did you, where did you come up with the idea of where to place the stops along his journey? And unless it was rather random, because I was a travel writer, so I would use where I was getting sent, but I and I would also try to pitch things to in flight airline magazines to try to get to Japan, for instance, because I couldn't afford to go there. But this this one was interesting, it was different. I got a Guggenheim grant in order to rent an RV, so I it was paid for and I took a I spent six weeks, which means I saw a lot more than Arthur less sees. He's only there for a few weeks. And I took loads and loads of notes and small towns, like I said, tiny details, you know, sitting alone in bars and writing down everything around me, and I used almost none of it. It was hard to pick and so I combined some places. In Arizona he goes to a sort of commune and those are two different places that I visited, that I've been in. One place I visited twice to get just, you know, a brief scene, but others came very easily, like the bar he goes to an Alabama, I guess you'd call it a redneck bar. is almost precisely my experience in that bar. Oh my God, opened the door, closed the door, good by. Yeah, I love those like little things that sneak in from real life, like it's nothing big, but it's just this little not and especially even like a friend or someone will be like I remember that I was there or you know, I remember that happened. We have a lot of writers that listen to this podcast as you can imagine, and I know that when I was trying to get published, I had this idea that it was only hard for me that everybody else knew someone, they had some inside scoop, they had you know, they knew someone that I didn't know, and so it was easier for them. And of course now I know that isn't true. But I have read that even your Pulitzer Prize winning less had a less than perfect road to publication. So can you tell us about the journey to getting that novel published? Yeah, it all looks and we don't like to complain when things are have gone well right. We don't want to go back and say I had a harder time than you did, because I definitely didn't. I did know people you know in a way or you, but there's those years of showing up at a cocktail party and being like, I guess I should try to meet people, something I'm not any good at. And less was a book like, for instance, in England, tried to sell it to first my publisher, who turned it down, and then eleven other publishers and they all turned it down and it did not come out in England. And tell after I want the pullet surprise, you know, nor...

...nor many other countries, other countries. I had some foreign publishers before and they all dropped me with this book. And I would say it's not about the book. In fact, it was about the fact that I just wasn't selling well. After you know, five novels and they they you sort of drop off at a certain age, you know, if you write enough books and they're not best sellers, they're not persuaded anymore. If you've got a date, you novel to go all in. So the pride sure help I have got. I've had that help. So, speaking of the prize Um, it seems amazing that a both about a struggling writer who so often feels the sense of failure. When's the pullet surprise, it's like the most just you know, it's it's a really beautiful moment. So can you tell us what was it like? What was the moment that you found out you want like? What did that what happened, and what does that feel like? Do you have a minute it? Yes, autely, it was as absurd as that. Anything you could make up. I was working at an artist residency outside of Florence in Italy and I was working for an elderly Baronessa who is still a great friend of mine, and she had an incontinent Pug, who would you might imagine, and I thought this can't we can't do this Um and in fact Margaret Atwood was coming soon and I thought I have to train the dog to wear diapers. So it was the second day. I'd sent away for diapers from China that had like rhinestones and rainbows on them. I thought the BARONESSA would think that was funny, and I was training the dog to wear the diapers at dinner or any time, not in the bed. So I just finished my second training session and cut the pug into bed. When I went back downstairs, I think it was like ten at night and my boyfriend showed me his phone and someone had said congratulations to Andy and he said what is this? And I looked at my phone. We don't check phones out there, like there's not good self service. So and mine was all like fireworks, dancing, lady balloon like, not helpful, you know, emoticons at all. And I saw that I had a lot of calls Um and they were all from members of the Shabon family. Michael Shaban and his wife and his four kids who I know really well. So Michael Shabon one, I think in two thousand. I thought because someone had said Pulletzer, and I don't even know when that happens. Now I know it's a plage team, but I didn't know before what time of year. So I called him up and I said what happened and he said Andy won the pulletzer prize and I said did I? And he said, am I the one telling you? And he was. No, I didn't get a or I wasn't aware of a call from a committee or from anything. I was hours late getting the news. So, like, I called my mother. She was already drunk in California, you know, opened the champagne. It was really I was behind the news. It was a way. That's a...

...fantastic story, though, incredible. I can't imagine that. It's just that's super exciting. I love that. I woke up the baroness and told her, yeah, well, if you're going to wake someone up for something, I think that is the moment that you wake them up. That seems like a good time. That's probably worth it. Yeah, so I'm going to switch gears just a little bit and go back to your writing. You talk about the craft of writing, your you teach students and things. What is your approach to the work? It's it's to try to again get past my own planning and try to be as as as as free and wandering as free as possible. It goes against my nature to outline and plan everything out, but I have learned over time and that the less that I plan, the closer I get to the final product, even though it's a really upsetting process. And, most importantly, I have learned that when I get feedback on it, for instance, unless I got a lot of feedback, to to change the ending, to not have a sort of little surprise at the end, because it's to the reader already had a good time. Why risk it? And I have learned that when someone gives you a note like that to cut something important, that what you have to do is change everything else. That that they're telling you. They're like my friend Daniel Handler says. He says you're the doctor, they're the patient. They can only tell you where it hurts. You're the one who has the solution. So I tell my students that, because you have to keep it in mind that only you know how to fix the book, only you have the thing in your head, and so you have to be willing to change everything else to get the thing you really want. You know, if there's a story about a marriage falling apart and there's a mermaid that shows up at the end, the whole class will say cut the mermaid and it's great and I'll be like well, cut the mermaid and then you have a mediocre story about a marriage kind of falling apart. The Mermaid is the great part. Like how can we make a story where a mermaid showing up is sublime instead of act on? I think that's the challenge, is to make something milliant. So is unless is loss. Did you already have an idea with and it would be no spoilers, because again, it's amazing, but did you always know that that was the pathy we're going to end up? Well, in my mind there's in a way there's two endings. There's a sort of climax and there's a there's a motion towards the end. The climax I always knew, and that was another one. People told me that's that's just too improbable, and I was like, all right now, I'll figure it out, don't worry. But the ending I wrote the first draft was a totally different actual final ten pages of the book, and in rewriting it I spent I decided I was going to give a lot more time to Freddie. I thought that would be a really interesting move and sort of wait things towards him a lot more than than less...

...his realizations, and that meant changing absolutely everything about the the last chapter. So are we are we? Are we finished with Freddie and Arthur? I yes, for the moment I'm working on a new book. That has nothing to do with it. But I mean, I feel like I have some years left. I can sort of, you know, toss this towards the future. If I'm ever you find myself again in a situation where there's a there's something I have questions about and I can't figure out how to write about it. I have a way of writing about things um about me in a way, and things I worry about that I could return to, you know, I think, and there's a lot of writers who who do that, they return to the same narrators, even if it doesn't feel like the same story anymore. So we'll see, but I have to get I have to move out, and this time my agent said it's not another less novelist, and I thought, yes, you're right. I know it's not what we look forward to. That whatever it is. So yeah, good early readers right here. Yes, we're available always, but we are. We were going to ask you for a writing tip, but the one that you already gave us is so good that I almost sort of hate to sully it by asking you for another one, and I was like kind of a libel moment, for I'm like, yes, that's right. It's like we are the only person that can actually figure out how to fix our book. That's just that seems really obvious, but just the way that you put it is so true that sometimes what someone is saying you need to change is not is not the thing that you necessarily need to change. So I love that and I just feel like that's the writing tip that we all need. I'm good. I'm gonna Daniel Handler. He's really the one who gave me that tip and it was life changing for me. That's brilliant. Well, Andrew, thank you so much for joining us today. We are so grateful that you were here. It's it's really been an honor to meet you and to read your work and to be able to gush about it a little bit. I Know Christie joins me in that and I know that our listeners, listeners are gonna be just so thrilled to hear this conversation they're gonna be running out to get a copy of less's loss. So congratulations on the publication of it and we can't wait to see what's coming next. Thank you, both of us such great fun. It's great to talk to writers. Well, thank you for coming. This was wonderful and we've really been looking forward to it and I think it was even more fun than we thought it was going to be. So I think exactly good. Yeah, yeah, I thought a Bah Blah, blah, blah. I thought it'd Buh and thank you all for joining us on this episode. On behalf of the FAB Four. We're so grateful and constantly beside ourselves for all the support you give us each and every week. Please be sure to share us with a friend. Yeah, thank you...

...for tuning in to the friends and fiction writer's block podcast. Please be sure to subscribe, rate and review on your favorite podcast platform. Tune in every Friday for another episode, and you can also join us every week on facebook or youtube. Where are live? Friends and fiction show airs at seven PM Eastern Standard Time. We're so glad you're here.

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